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Swede6.5x55
10-15-2011, 01:57 AM
Anyone got any advice or helpful tips in what i should narrow down my search for. I have enough spare money accumluated over time to buy a double barrel 12ga. Now, i would like a nice one, Stoeger makes a good, working one, but i want some nice wood. I done a real bad thing though...I looked at Winchester Model 21's. That's what sparked it. I got the story from my papa, who inturn recieved it from a friend at work, whos encounter with one years ago made me evnious to a very frightening degree. $40 for a Model 21 in the newspaper. So, i have looked at Stoeger(cheap but working) CZ makes a beautiful side by side, but it's a bit out of my range. I heard that a Savage 311 would be a good one, but further adivce has shown me that they can be on the low side of quality and beauty, due to the abundance and mass production of them. Now, i have heard that the Russians make a good double barrel, with nice wood, and working mechanisms. I have seen these Wussian side by sides, and i must say, they are nice. My range is around half a grand, and with low charge bills, i can recover fairly well. Help is needed fellers. Any names of companies that make them, i know that Remington don't, and that's about it to my knowledge. The rest are very expensive, too high for my earnings saved twofold.

Ahnkochee
10-15-2011, 03:24 AM
I've owned all three at one time or another first a Savage/Stevens 311, then a Stoeger/IGA, and a Russian Baikal. None of them could be mistaken for a Purdey but they were reliable workhorses and had their grace to their line. Only one that gave me problem was the 311 which needed a firing pin replaced but that was fault from too much dry firing (don't dry fire doubles without snap caps). I don't think you'll go wrong with any of these.

Yellow Lab
10-15-2011, 07:19 AM
For the money you can find a Charles Daly made by Miroku. It is often called the 500. Miroku is a Japanese company that made the Browning BSS. Miroku also makes the Browing Citori over/under.

The reason I picked this is because while the Savage and others are workhorses the Miroku really kicks up it up notch is quality.

The 311 is a tank but also to me feels like a tank. The Miroku feels a little leaner.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/charles_daly_500_shotguns.htm (http://www.chuckhawks.com/charles_daly_500_shotguns.htm)

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=255920147 (http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=255920147)

I have one with the splinter forend. The one in this auction has the beavertail forend.

Here is an example and a good site for learning what each part is called, etc.

http://www.hallowellco.com/beavertail_and_splinter_forends.htm (http://www.hallowellco.com/beavertail_and_splinter_forends.htm)

werewolf won
10-15-2011, 07:31 AM
The Charles Daily in 20 gauge. My Dads old gun, this one has the beavertail forearm. You will not go far wrong with one of these, I love it.

Wolf

http://i899.photobucket.com/albums/ac192/werewolfwon/PICT0312-1.jpg

Yellow Lab
10-15-2011, 07:33 AM
The Charles Daily in 20 gauge. My Dads old gun, this one has the beavertail forearm. You will not go far wrong with one of these, I love it.

Wolf

http://i899.photobucket.com/albums/ac192/werewolfwon/PICT0312-1.jpg

Sweet looking 20ga and it has a legacy in the family. Doesn't get any better does it?

werewolf won
10-15-2011, 07:40 AM
It has nice choking too. I have it's mate in tighter chokes, what my Dad mised I could pick off, we'd switch guns and I'd take the first shots for a while and he'd follow up. Saddly, now that he's gone, both guns sit packed in grease.

Wolf

Yellow Lab
10-15-2011, 07:55 AM
It has nice choking too. I have it's mate in tighter chokes, what my Dad mised I could pick off, we'd switch guns and I'd take the first shots for a while and he'd follow up. Saddly, now that he's gone, both guns sit packed in grease.

Wolf

Well after you recuperate get her out and shoot her even for a round of skeet or trap.

GreyOne
10-15-2011, 08:31 AM
Ithaca / SKB guns from the 80's are still around, and are very nice, trim little guns if you find one.

The Savage 311 is indeed a bit heavy and bulky, but is about as tough and reliable as a SxS can get. They make excellent field and forage guns, but will never give you the fine feeling of aesthetic gratification a Winchester 21 can offer. :)

The Russian guns, well the quality has varied widely. I once had a brand new one picked up off the dealers rack, and the left hammer fell off when cocked. It was a bit less than a confidence builder.

The older Ithaca and Lefever guns are nice, and some might be available around your price range, though condition varies a good deal.

sbkittrell
10-15-2011, 09:00 AM
Sometimes Track of the Wolf (www.trackofthewolf.com) has some nice older cartridge shotguns at decent prices. All they have now is this one, and it's limited to blackpowder cartridges. But if you are a reloader it might be worth considering. Somebody refurbished it and took a lot of the value away, so that's why it's only $300.00. But it's still a nice looking shotgun, to me anyway, if you are a reloader. Since this is an antique it can be shipped straight to your front door too.

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/partDetail.aspx?catId=12&subId=79&styleId=276&partNum=AAK-037

EDIT: I just reread the description of this and you have to half cock the hammers when opening the breach so to protect the firing pins, and the gun can fire with the hammers at half cock. So it is not what I'd call safe by any means.

akbound
10-15-2011, 10:04 AM
If you can not find what you really like at your price point it might be worth saving a little longer for one of the CZ's, they are very nice!:3::4:

randyt
10-15-2011, 10:10 AM
I have four side by sides in 12 ga. A iver johnson that had belonged to my granddad and a ithaca flues or lewis that belonged to him too. Then there is a remington1900 cut down to a canoe gun, it's still with in the legal limit for length. And a stoeger coach gun my wife gifted me a few years back.

What do you intend to use the gun for? slugs or shot?

ezra45
10-15-2011, 11:02 AM
Save a little more and look at a Fox Sterlingworth from the '30s ...made by A.H. Fox factory. Nice ones can be had for $650-$800 and they are one of the finest shotguns ever made. They are very similar to their more expensive graded foxes like the "A grade", "B grade", etc. They are VERY different from the Fox/Savage. They have very few parts, hold up extremely well, and can be repaired if necessary. They also hold their value unlike the more modern, cheaper guns.

Regards,

ezra

Siskiyou Blues
10-15-2011, 11:29 AM
Ithaca / SKB guns from the 80's are still around, and are very nice, trim little guns if you find one.

The Savage 311 is indeed a bit heavy and bulky, but is about as tough and reliable as a SxS can get. They make excellent field and forage guns, but will never give you the fine feeling of aesthetic gratification a Winchester 21 can offer. :)

The Russian guns, well the quality has varied widely. I once had a brand new one picked up off the dealers rack, and the left hammer fell off when cocked. It was a bit less than a confidence builder.

The older Ithaca and Lefever guns are nice, and some might be available around your price range, though condition varies a good deal.

I'll echo the SKB recommendation. I have an Ithaca/SKB 500 20g over under and it has performed very well for me. I paid less then 500 for it and it is a no frills well performing over under.
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1363/5179805702_bee7cdb33d_b.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4045/5179212363_0a7061b495_b.jpg

My experiences with the Stoegers have been disappointing. A cheap double is rarely a good double. You have to ask yourself why do you really want one? Your money goes a lot further with a pump or semi then a double.
I would suggest holding off and saving your money until you can afford a secondhand browning or beretta, or at least the cz if you really need a double.

L.V
10-15-2011, 11:33 AM
What about used Valmet 412 o/u system from 70s and 80s? Just popped to my mind as they were exported to states and what I can remember were highly liked back then. Tikka 512 is sort of the same gun with some modification, but what I have read not as high quality.

Old Savage model 330 o/u were Valmets too, but dunno if they are 1:1 the same system.

2nd hand info eat with teaspoonfull of salt.

edit. Seems a bit over your price range in really good condition tho :(

hunter63
10-15-2011, 12:00 PM
What about used Valmet 412 o/u system from 70s and 80s? Just popped to my mind as they were exported to states and what I can remember were highly liked back then. Tikka 512 is sort of the same gun with some modification, but what I have read not as high quality.

2nd hand info eat with teaspoonfull of salt.

Good luck in finding one for $500 bucks....in any kind of shape.

L.V
10-15-2011, 12:03 PM
.. removed.. were auction starting bid, damn. :31:

gloomhound
10-15-2011, 12:34 PM
You can get a new CZ side by side Bobwhite 12ga for $662 at Buds Gunshop.

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/images/D11/15/15518.jpg

Siskiyou Blues
10-15-2011, 12:54 PM
You can get a new CZ side by side Bobwhite 12ga for $662 at Buds Gunshop.

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/images/D11/15/15518.jpg


I've wanted one of those bad for a while now, now if only I could find a way to "need" it!

Ahnkochee
10-15-2011, 12:58 PM
Those Miroku 500s are oldies but goodies if you can find one in good shape. Charles Daly later went to cheaper Italian imports that from what I gather were of lesser quality fit & finish so make sure it's the Miroku made one.
Several years ago I went to a garage sale. The older gentleman was selling all his possessions and moving to Connecticut to be closer to his only daughter. He was retired US Air Force and in earlier years was stationed in Japan. We talked about Japan since I had also lived there about the same time. Out of the blue I asked if he had any guns for sale. He said wait here, and went upstairs and returned with a box that said Miroku on it. He opened it up and their laid a mirror double of a Browning Citori but without the Browning label, excellent condition and just beautiful to look at, and hold. He said he picked it personally at the factory back in '65. I asked "you really want to part with it?" He replied that he hadn't shot it in over 20 years, and didn't want to bother packing anything for his move east. He gave it to me for $300.00 which in 1995 was still a decent deal. Both barrels were choked skeet/skeet which I worried about but this guy assured me that the choking would be fine in the field. He was right. Pheasants, Francolins, quails all fell to this sweet pointing O/U. For hunting upland game I think most shotguns are over-choked. This Miroku 20 gauge O/U is my gun of choice when pursuing Pheasants, Quail, and Francolins ever since.

I personally would not consider any Miroku or SKB shotgun for bushcraft unless you don't mind dragging a work of art in the mud, dropping it on rocks, getting it wet and rusty, dingging up the high grade checkered walnut stock. That's what the ugly Russians and Brazilians are for. ;)

Ahnkochee
10-15-2011, 01:03 PM
You can get a new CZ side by side Bobwhite 12ga for $662 at Buds Gunshop.

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/images/D11/15/15518.jpg

Closest thing to an English double I could ever get close to affording.

snareman
10-15-2011, 01:13 PM
hey you can buy 2 russians for 1/2 grand if you look , I got a double barrel with hammers , 30" full choke barrels , with rings for a sling , great dependable gun, found it on the internet.

gloomhound
10-15-2011, 02:41 PM
CZ MALLARD 12g over and under for $487 shipped as well.

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/images/D11/12/12343.jpg

swissarmy67
10-15-2011, 10:09 PM
CZ's are nice. I had a Patridge 20ga and sold it.

It had 28" tubes and I like my Grouse guns 24-26".

The older Stevens 5100 is a little more svelt than the 311 versions but have the same guts.

Be careful with imported guns from Turkey and Spain. Once the importer drops the line it will be a bitch to get replacement parts.

Trekon86
10-15-2011, 10:38 PM
My Gpa has an old boxlock side by side Ithaca:drool:

I love it!

PMZ

wrbthe3rd
10-15-2011, 10:43 PM
i have a stoger 12 double,my friend borrowed it years ago and haven,t seen it since,maybe i will give him a call.

Mooncrow
10-15-2011, 10:45 PM
I shot a lot of birds and bunnies with my Stoeger side by side...not going to win any beauty contests but it shoots really nice. If I remember right (bought it in the early 80's), the price was very decent. It must have been, I was pretty broke back then...

gloomhound
10-15-2011, 11:09 PM
i have a stoger 12 double,my friend borrowed it years ago and haven,t seen it since,maybe i will give him a call.

That's the reason why I don't lend knives or guns.

wolfy
10-15-2011, 11:16 PM
My first one is a Stevens 311 mod/full 12 ga. Second is a Navy Arms muzzleloader imp. cyl./ cyl. 12 ga. that I built from a kit. Third is a nearly new 1912 sidehammer A.J Aubrey mod/full 12 ga. Fourth is a Spanish Noble mod/imp.cyl. 12 ga. that I use most for pheasants and quail. Never had a problem with any of them. Love 'em all!

Swede6.5x55
10-15-2011, 11:35 PM
Well, i actually want one, and i do "need" one. I think, and this is just myself, that a pump gun, or my Mossberg 500 isn't "made" for the woods. Yes it is a shotgun, and yes it is made to be used for what ever you can think of that it can be used for in a correct way. I want double barrel because they look like double rifles(which i really love) and are traditional in a sense. I like to go hunting with simple things. I like shooting with simple things. I think that i will save for a CZ, probably a Bob White one, or maybe a Hammer Classic, i don't know. I am waiting for my local gun show to hit town during the first week of November. I always see lots of old, old double barrels and double rifles, so i'll look.

Nex Ut Tyrannus
10-16-2011, 02:15 AM
I always had a thing for black powder doubles. But never could find one in a gauge and barrel length I liked. Good luck in your search. Hope you find one that suits you well.

Yellow Lab
10-16-2011, 07:53 AM
I'd recommend that before you buy any used double you learn what to look for and what are signs are normal wear compared to a potentially dangerous gun. Learn how to determine if a double is off face or loose and what is entailed to fix it.

As for the pump not belonging in the woods - there are many folks including me who might disagree with this. The Winchester Model 12, the Ithaca Model 37, the Remington 870, etc have taken many many birds in the woods. :dblthumb:

Siskiyou Blues
10-16-2011, 10:45 AM
I'd recommend that before you buy any used double you learn what to look for and what are signs are normal wear compared to a potentially dangerous gun. Learn how to determine if a double is off face or loose and what is entailed to fix it.

As for the pump not belonging in the woods - there are many folks including me who might disagree with this. The Winchester Model 12, the Ithaca Model 37, the Remington 870, etc have taken many many birds in the woods. :dblthumb:

I agree with this tenfold. Even though I originally bought my SKB for well under your budget, over the past 3 years the cost has almost doubled. That puts me a hundred or so bucks under the price of a used citori. Unless I had a trained eye (which I don't) I would never buy an older one to try to save money again. Also, almost all the older fixed choke guns can't handle steel shot, so depending where you are and what you are hunting it might not be the best choice.

And regarding a pump, it's hard to imagine a gun more suited for the woods then an 870 wingmaster. Unless I am out hunting birds with my dog a double's not the first gun I would bring in the bush. Can only hold two shells, no slugs, no steel (only in the older ones), there are more reasons I'll think of later.

Swede6.5x55
10-16-2011, 12:49 PM
You can disagree with me if you choose, but i said that for me, it doesn't fit. I like a more traditional, simplistic gun. A pump gun is a good shotgun, i'm not dogging it in anyway. I like my Mossberg 500 just fine, and i bought it because it is a very good pump gun because it is a pump gun. I say it isn't "made," hence quotations because it is too "complicated' for what i want in a gun. You disassembled one right? How many parts must come out? A bunch. Disassemble a double barrel, you have barrel, forend and stock, with the hamers and levers on the inside. That's what i mean by complicated. I want one because it's simple and traditional. I like to walk, the balance of a pump gun, my Mossberg don't feel right unless it's in my shoulders, which for squirrel hunting, it hardly is in your shoulders.

swamprat
10-16-2011, 04:29 PM
I bought a Mossberg O/U a couple of years ago ($485) and it has worked pretty much flawlessly. I had to get used to the safety/barrel selector and after getting past that it has been a sweet shotgun.

rockett88s
10-17-2011, 12:19 AM
Hey Swede...

I bought a lightly used Richland SxS in 20 Ga, with a Youth length stock and 22" bbls. Cost was well under your range. These guns were built in Spain by Zabalaya Arms... I'm not an expert, but the fit and finish is significantly better than any of the Stoegers or Baikals I've inspected... It fits me well, and mounts and points and shoots like a dream... It's got ten years of hard use at my hand, functions flawlessly, and has held up well.

I haven't had to replace any parts yet... But I plan on rolling down to my local gun shop and checking availability... I'll let you know what I find out...

I'd buy another in a heartbeat...

annoyinglylongname
10-17-2011, 12:53 AM
I have had my Stoeger for years and have shot several thousands of rounds through it. If i were to go off into the woods with one gun, it's the Stoeger. It always works, i love tje look and balance of an sxs for shooting in the woods. They are much handier than pumps or autos in thick wood

BigEd63
10-17-2011, 08:02 AM
If you can not find what you really like at your price point it might be worth saving a little longer for one of the CZ's, they are very nice!:3::4:

I agree with this. Though I'm not much of a shotgun person, any firearm you want is worth the wait and saving for.

BTW- I do like the looks of the SxS doubles.

hunter63
10-17-2011, 10:14 AM
I agree with this. Though I'm not much of a shotgun person, any firearm you want is worth the wait and saving for.

BTW- I do like the looks of the SxS doubles.

+1 on this....You might try to get by cheaper, but will never be truly happy with what ever....So will someday spend the necessary bucks to get what you really want.
In the end will cost you more as prices don't go down.

Just a couple of buck more to go first class........IMHO

Sambo
10-17-2011, 03:36 PM
Baikal has a good prize/quality side by side

santaman2000
10-17-2011, 04:09 PM
...Unless I am out hunting birds with my dog a double's not the first gun I would bring in the bush. Can only hold two shells, no slugs, no steel (only in the older ones), there are more reasons I'll think of later.

Who said a double cain't handle slugs? My Stevens 311 handles them just fine. Just never put them in the Full choke barrel. In fact having a slug in the Modified side and whatever else I choose in the Full choke side gives me instant selectability; just pull whichever trigger I need.

Siskiyou Blues
10-17-2011, 04:19 PM
Hah I spose I'm wrong there. I was always told you can but shouldn't. Maybe because mine is an older gun? I probably just got bad intel. :15:

Edit: seems like I am just dishing out bad intel. I will be more careful next time.

santaman2000
10-17-2011, 04:29 PM
I suppose it really depends on just how old is "old." When I was growing up most people said don't use slugs in any choked barrel (no matter what the action type was) Truth is though, I never had any problems; I suspect the idea goes back to the really old guns (think damascus barrels) with poor steel.

Steven Feidt
10-17-2011, 05:57 PM
I like my doubles a lot. I have a 20 gauge SKB basic model 100, sweet gun and has been carried many many miles with no discomfort and has killed a lot of grouse. A Browning BSS 12 guage that I bought years ago for 400 bucks, the Brownings are going anywhere from 800 to a couple of grand or more depending on the model. The Browning is kind of heavy but it's a solid gun, I wish it was a 20. The other is a 20 gauge coach gun

Swede6.5x55
10-17-2011, 09:33 PM
Doing research helps alot. I'm thinking of using No.6 shot for squirrels and wabbits. Thas what i used lastime in an unchoked barrels.

santaman2000
10-17-2011, 10:50 PM
Doing research helps alot. I'm thinking of using No.6 shot for squirrels and wabbits. Thas what i used lastime in an unchoked barrels.

That's what I always used as a kid too. And #8 for birds. Then I switched to 7 1/2 shot cause it worked equally well for both.

Swede6.5x55
10-17-2011, 11:14 PM
That's what I always used as a kid too. And #8 for birds. Then I switched to 7 1/2 shot cause it worked equally well for both.


Thanks for the tip man. I can't hit anything worth a dam! HAH!

swissarmy67
10-19-2011, 12:59 PM
Rabbit #6 or #7.5

Squirrel #5 or #6

Grouse
#7.5 or #8 (early season)
#6 (late season)

Pheasant #4,5,6
(I prefer 1oz+ of #4's)

Frequently when bird hunting with a SxS I'll run a smaller shot size in the open choke and a larger in the tight choke.


YMMV

Swede6.5x55
10-21-2011, 12:43 AM
I'm pretty much settled on a CZ. Now, for the long, laborious wait or Moria. I had a dream about one, and when i have dreams about one, then i buy it. I give it until Mid-November. I'm waiting for my next gunshow which has a goos selection of Double Barrels the first week of November. If i get one, i'll go wabbit hunting that day...maybe.