Compact Sleep System

Discussion in 'Sleep Systems' started by GunGoBoom, Aug 31, 2016.

  1. GunGoBoom

    GunGoBoom I'm not lost, I've just misplaced myself. Supporter Bushclass I

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    Gentlemen, I need some assistance. I am working on putting together a new belt kit based around the USGI Molle 2 waist pack and Mother canteen pouch. I know this subject has been beat to death but I am trying to find the most effective sleep system I can fit into the Molle waist pack. Nothing else really needs to fit in the pack except possibly an SOL escape bivy. I have looked at a number of modernized woobies as well as the Personal Survival Blanket from Wilderness Innovation but I don't have any hands on experience outside of the USGI woobie and the Wiggys woobie. What I need is more insight into pack size and a better idea on which ones are most efficient in terms of insulation vs compressed dimensions. Of course, if they don't fit in the molle waist pack then they are scratched from the list. I'm about 5'8" if that helps with dimensions.

    I know the first question is what temperatures are you expecting. I don't know and that's the point. I want to be able to go as low as possible within the specified pack size.

    I am also open to any other ideas on how to tackle the insulation issue in a small kit so feel free to chime in with other options.
     
  2. blind & lost

    blind & lost Supporter Supporter Bushcraft Friend

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    Are you thinking for regular use, or just in a one night unplanned stay?
     
  3. GunGoBoom

    GunGoBoom I'm not lost, I've just misplaced myself. Supporter Bushclass I

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    Somewhere in between. It would be used on some planned trips but it would come with me as a day kit as well for any unplanned nights out.
     
  4. crewhead05

    crewhead05 Supporter Supporter

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    Off the bat I would say either a HPG mountain serape or a snugpak poncho liner.

    I dont have a molle 2 waist pack anymore so I cant say on size. I am 95% sure the poncho liner would fit. And id have to guess from pics from the HPG forum that it would fit as well. Here are some pics you can search through on the HPG forum for packed size reference. Mountain Serape - HPG - Hill People Gear
     
  5. blind & lost

    blind & lost Supporter Supporter Bushcraft Friend

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    Can't immediately think of anything other than SOL bivy sack, which you mentioned. Since moisture is a concern, I would be very careful with down. Obviously warmth generally comes weight and space, the age old dilemma. Good luck on your search, sorry I couldn't assist more.
     
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  6. Moondog55

    Moondog55 Guide

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    Make a down jacket part of the system; a modern down jacket or parka packs small and is lightweight.
    It all depends on your budget but personally I think the money is always well spent if you buy the best you can afford
    Moisture isn't an issue if you use a breathable bivvy sack and hydrophobic down
    Most of this has been talked about already but perhaps the little bum bag you talk about is unrealistically small; the bigger combat pack may do the job tho

    sleep/shelter system for daypack
     
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  7. Seeker

    Seeker Woods Bum Supporter Bushcraft Friend Bushclass I

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    Are you really sure you don't want down? If it's any help, you know the conditions we have here in LA... it's kinda damp, with occasional moisture. Don't remember if you'd seen my WM down bag... it's tiny, good to 35*F when I had a metabolism. Compresses into a roughly 5"x8" stuff sack (though I usually pack it in a bigger one just because I don't need it that small). Been here for 15 years, out in all the nasty wet weather, never got the bag wet... Your call, but it will be your lightest and most compressible option. Not sure I buy into the "new, water-resistant down" hype though.

    When I first got my down bag, I did two experiments.

    The first involved the bag itself. It's a "sewn-through" box stitch design, meaning it doesn't have baffles, but is simply a bag of down with stitching across it at 90* making boxes... that's why it's only good to 35*F. In any case, I pressed down in the middle of one of the boxes, making a divot, and poured about a half cup of water into it... 1/2 hour later, it was still pooled just fine, no seepage through the covering... after a couple hours, I gave up and ended the experiment. The cover is effectively waterproof.

    The second experiment involved a waterproof stuff sack. You've seen at least one of mine, that orange one I keep all my loose crap in. I bought the Walmart 3-pack, and use the largest (green) for my down hammock underquilt (now), the orange medium one as described, and the smallest blue one for my camera. I took my sleeping bag and stuffed it into the Green walmart "water-proof" stuff sack, rolled the top down, and set it in the bottom of a 30 gallon trash can. I place a cinder block on top of it, and then filled it with the hose... 2 hours later, I came out, lifted the block, and took the sack inside. I opened it, pulled out my sleeping bag, and looked for wet spots. Yup. Found a couple. There had been a small amount of seepage that got inside, and it had wicked into my sleeping bag along one of the stitched seams. About 1/2 the down in one of the 7" squares was a little wet... this was absolutely NOT enough to degrade the bag's performance.

    I currently keep my sleeping bag NOT in a waterproof stuff sack, but in a silnylon one with some fleece on the side to use as a pillow. But my down hammock underquilt does go in that same green sack just because it's all I have. However, BOTH of those sacks go inside the trash bag lining my pack if I'm backpacking, or a dry bag inside my pack if I'm canoeing.

    In about 45 years of camping and outdoor activity, I've never gotten any sleeping bag wet. The closest I ever got was during a 4 day/all day storm in the Adirondacks... I got 9" of rain one night, and my hammock tarp had a small ridgeline leak the whole time (fixed that at night by hanging my poncho over it.) I also was getting dampness creeping down the tieouts and the body of the hammock was sort of damp after 3 days... By the 4th day, my bag was humid, but still lofty. The sun came out, the bag was hung to air (as I do daily anyway), and was good to go in a few hours (as usual.)

    Townsend Whelen and Calvin Rutstrum both "okayed" down bags, in an era when the coverings weren't as good as they are now. I'm an advocate as well... You can't be careless, but they're not unsafe... kinda like a knife, I guess.

    As long as you're not planning on sleeping out in the rain, on the ground, unprotected, I think you'll be ok with a down quilt (lighter than a bag). Good luck.
     
  8. GunGoBoom

    GunGoBoom I'm not lost, I've just misplaced myself. Supporter Bushclass I

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    Seeker, if I pair it with a bivy and a quality dry bag that could be a viable option. My problem is that alot of my trips involve bowfishing and wading in the river. While I'm not swimming with my gear, it does get wet on occasion. Of course, a dry bag is going to be necessary either way so.....
     
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  9. Medic17

    Medic17 Supporter Supporter

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    Personally I would look into another container option.

    I do not think you will get much in that waist pack if you would like to to fit sleep insulation in it.

    With that setup my guess would be a SOL Escape bivvy, maybe* a ultralight sleeping bag liner, poncho, and a beanie hat would be max. The ultralight liner (silk or LW Synthetic) would add comfort and about 5-10 degrees to the bivvy sleep system. I am also assuming you will be adding a few other items to the pouch like food. With that setup you better have good insulation between you and the ground. (Trash bag full of leaves or grass?)

    I have a Kifaru Wobbie and a Snugpak Jungle Bag and you need at least a 25L pack for a overnight with either of them.

    Down sleeping bags compresses better and are lighter but you cannot store them compressed for any extended period of time.

    Here is a pic of my setup.
    24 Hour Bag Part II
    Its a 30L Pack with the Bivvy and a Snugpack Jungle Bag.
    I also have a pic of the Kifaru Wobbie in there as well so you can see the size of it packed.

    I do not think discussing temperatures is a good idea because its way too subjective.

    Edit To Add
    @crewhead05
    I have been looking at the HPG Serape.
    Toying with the idea in my head, I have come to the conclusion would decrease my pack volume by replacing my jacket and sleeping bag however I feel I would loose some temperature rating. It seems a jacket and bag would be more efficient at keeping you warm by the bulk of insulation.

    I think where the HPG Serape would shine would be in a hiking day pack where you do not expect a overnight. It can double as a coat for incoming weather (or unexpected submersion) or a blanket for two snuggling adults or a adult and two kids. Sharing a mummy style sleeping bag is really not a option.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2016
  10. PDA

    PDA Scout

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    This with puffy jacket and long johns OK to mid 20s,sothe reverend says.

    Will fit such a smallpack

    AS willthis:
     
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  11. Seacapt.

    Seacapt. Supporter Supporter

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    With waist pack can we assume that this "sleep system" you desire is for a possible emergency overnight only where keeping dry and containing body temperature is a priority or are you expecting semi comfortable unbroken sleeping conditions?
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2016
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  12. GunGoBoom

    GunGoBoom I'm not lost, I've just misplaced myself. Supporter Bushclass I

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    Some level of comfort would be nice but I'm not talking about a sub - freezing sleep system. I'm looking more along the lines of a mild 3 season system. I know it's not an easy task but I think it can be done.
     
  13. Seacapt.

    Seacapt. Supporter Supporter

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    I can only tell you what works for me for day trekking and unplanned overnight all seasons, a USGI poncho which is always tied to the shoulder strap of my Finn GM bag along with 2 or 3 cheap plastic foil space blankets in bag or pocket but frequently used during late spring through early fall as a sleeping system if I find a good trout stream and decide to stick around for the next mornings rise. Most nights I just use poncho with X amount of clothes on/off depending on temps as a dew or rain cover atop a reasonably comfortable duff and bough mattress, cooler weather same but using space blanket in a taco wrap set up and more clothing left on if needed. Due to the frailness of the cheap lightweight space blankets the possible $5-$10.00 a year I may have to spend on replacing such is moot.
     
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  14. GunGoBoom

    GunGoBoom I'm not lost, I've just misplaced myself. Supporter Bushclass I

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    That's basically where my kit is now. I'm trying to up the comfort a bit from there.
     
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  15. Cro

    Cro American Grouch Supporter Bushcraft Friend Bushclass I Bushclass Instructor

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    I can't say my kit would fit in the MOLLE waist pack or not but after several years of trial and error I landed on a 8 ounce Ti Goat Raven Omni bivy and a Kifaru woobie (with Apex insulation not combat climashield). If used with a Thermarest Xtherm this set up is good for me down to around 28* with a base layer on. If used over pine boughs or other insulated bed it's good for the upper 30*s. If you use a compression sack the woobie is quite compressible.

    I do have a HPG Mountain Serape and used it similarly but it won't go below 40-45* comfortably and it isn't as compressible as the Kifaru Woobie. For later season stuff I'm using the Kifaru doobie (double the insulation of the woobie) and with that pad and bivy I'm good into the high teens. Past that and I'm in a 0* slick bag.

    I understand your pursuit, I chased a minimalist belt rig that could sustain me overnights for quite some time.

    My kit is on the left, that's my son's on the right. We bivy'd at about 8500', I used the system described above and he used a 20* down bag, we both stayed comfortable.

    [​IMG]

    I'm really enjoying such a light sleep system.

    [​IMG]
     
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  16. Seacapt.

    Seacapt. Supporter Supporter

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    Would a cheap pool type air mattress and foot or two of Gorilla tape wrapped around a pencil nub for possible puncture patch fit into you waist pack?
     
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  17. GunGoBoom

    GunGoBoom I'm not lost, I've just misplaced myself. Supporter Bushclass I

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    Thanks Cro, that's exactly the info I'm looking for.
     
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  18. GunGoBoom

    GunGoBoom I'm not lost, I've just misplaced myself. Supporter Bushclass I

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    I'm not sure. I'm not too worried about ground cover. I can improvise that fairly easily. My concern is the top insulation. I do keep some gorilla tape in my kit.
     
  19. Seeker

    Seeker Woods Bum Supporter Bushcraft Friend Bushclass I

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    Warmth is also a matter of thickness, not of material... Would it be worth making your own baffled bivy-like shell to stuff with natural insulation? Maybe two layers of silnylon about 4'x6', with 3 seams down the middle to make 1' wide baffles...
     
  20. GunGoBoom

    GunGoBoom I'm not lost, I've just misplaced myself. Supporter Bushclass I

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    Cro, the specs listed for the pack say 350 ci. That should translate to about 5.7 liters. If you have a 5 liter dry bag would you mind giving it a try? If you don't have one disregard.
     
  21. Cro

    Cro American Grouch Supporter Bushcraft Friend Bushclass I Bushclass Instructor

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    GGB,

    I'll put something together after work today.
     
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  22. GunGoBoom

    GunGoBoom I'm not lost, I've just misplaced myself. Supporter Bushclass I

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    Thanks!
     
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  23. GunGoBoom

    GunGoBoom I'm not lost, I've just misplaced myself. Supporter Bushclass I

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    That is a really good idea. I'll look into that.
     
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  24. WILL

    WILL Scout

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    I'd be looking at a down bag like this one. It squashes down to the size of a grapefruit. The down side is that it can't be stored that way. Did I say the word down enough?

    https://www.amazon.com/Mountain-Har...sbs_200_4?ie=UTF8&refRID=0FKM8AS82PD3N2N20J5M

    If you were wearing a good base layer and say a thick fleece jacket & socks to bed, a bag like that could probably keep you alive below freezing. You may have enough room left in your but-pack for a sil-nylon poncho.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2016
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  25. Moondog55

    Moondog55 Guide

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    So much depends on how fit you are, how well adapted to the environment you are, exhaustion levels, prevailing weather; especially wind and rain, your own tolerance for discomfort etc: but having done this more than a few times I know that I personally cannot do it from a bumbag.
    There are possible solutions but they include a very expensive down sleeping bag and vacuum packing

    Western Mountaineering have a bag that may suit although it does need a bivvy shell
    EverLite | Western Mountaineering
    and the very similar bag from Sea to Summit
    Series | Sea To Summit

    The SB in the link from WILL is also an option but more bulky although warmer by a long way but it would be a large grapefruit
    This is why I suggested going from the bumbag to the combat butt pack, the extra volume allows the use of cheaper solutions;

    NEW US Army Field Training Waist Utility Butt Pack ALICE Woodland Camouflage Bag
     
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  26. Cro

    Cro American Grouch Supporter Bushcraft Friend Bushclass I Bushclass Instructor

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    My rig isn't going to fit in what you are proposing I am afraid.

    Several images below with a nalgene for size reference. My entire sleep system fits in a Kifaru long, IIRCC the long was a 1k ci dock and lock, my kit is taking up about 900ci of that pouch.

    Woobie, Xtherm Neoair, Bivvy, and pillow all fit together.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    I inflated the pillow to give a secondary size reference. It's roughly the same size as the long pocket.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    As for the side conversation on down, I experimented with it but decided I'd rather go synthetic. The idea of going without primary shelter and getting caught in the rain or getting a down bag wet in sub freezing temps was simply a nonstarter for me. Further, I wanted to be able to use it while glassing, the rhino skin woobie is durable enough for that and will still insulate when wet. I've found down bags to be less than as durable and they are worthless if wet. Thus I separated from a down option pretty early on. Love the warmth and compresability/weight but won't tolerate the liability.

    Good luck.
     
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  27. reppans

    reppans Scout

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    I'd go with a Neoair Xlite 3/4 pad + Jacks R Better Sierra Stealth ponch/quilt for ~1.6 lbs sleep system that can be worn during the chilly evenings and early mornings (saving the need to carry an extra jacket).
     
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  28. GunGoBoom

    GunGoBoom I'm not lost, I've just misplaced myself. Supporter Bushclass I

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    So I ordered a Kifaru grab it. I'm going to try rigging it to a battle belt and using a dry bag under it. That should be a little more versatile. I have Wiggy's liner to stand in for the time being.
     
  29. Gruntinhusaybah

    Gruntinhusaybah Guide Bushclass I

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    Ranger roll.
    Poncho and poncho liner, zipper added to liner, the two attached and used like a bag.
    You'll sleep great I promise:4::dblthumb:
    The trick is to only sleep a couple hours at a time and get REALLY tired first.

    But seriously, ranger roll. If you have the money I'd go with a BCO poncho and mountain serape.
     
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  30. GunGoBoom

    GunGoBoom I'm not lost, I've just misplaced myself. Supporter Bushclass I

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    Ha, I've done the ranger roll before. I already have the BCO poncho so I'm covered there. The problem is that my poncho is going to be my overhead cover. If I add an ultralight bivy I can have overhead and a splashguard as well as adding a few degrees to my woobie. In essence I'm going to end up with a ranger roll anyway though.
     
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  31. GunGoBoom

    GunGoBoom I'm not lost, I've just misplaced myself. Supporter Bushclass I

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    Kifaru has the Doobie Express on clearance so I'm going to try that combined with a bivy of some variety and secured to the belt with the Grab-it. More to follow once I have a chance to experiment.....On a side note the Doobie Express is going for $130.00 right now in OD and Coyote.
     
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  32. reppans

    reppans Scout

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    FWIW, I own a Doobie Express... Very nice worn as a insulated poncho, and better than a hot tent with a UCO candle lantern used as a Palmer furnace. It's a bit short when used as a Quilt - but if you're ~5'8" or so, it should be OK. Consider swapping the Velcro on one side - that way you can seal it horizontally as a poncho, and also vertically as a half sleeping bag (for legs only).

    Running the JRB Sierra Stealth now - similar idea/weight, but more loft (down), longer, and w/the half bag leg seal (good for 3/4 pads).
     
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  33. GunGoBoom

    GunGoBoom I'm not lost, I've just misplaced myself. Supporter Bushclass I

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    I am 5'8" so that is good to hear. I am a little concerned about the compressed size compared to the woobie but I couldn't pass up the price.

    Honestly I've been looking for an excuse to buy one for a long time so even if it doesn't work out I'm still good!
     
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  34. WILL

    WILL Scout

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    How would you battle heat loss to conduction (contact with the ground)?
     
  35. GunGoBoom

    GunGoBoom I'm not lost, I've just misplaced myself. Supporter Bushclass I

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    Either a small pad or natural insulation bed. It just depends where I'm going, the temperature, and the the amount of vegetation available.
     
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  36. Red Wing

    Red Wing Supporter Supporter

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    Trifecta Bivvy. Just rereleased it with upgrades after initial wave of reviews.

    Rev Hiker who does great vids, has a couple vids mentioning it and a stand alone review of it as well.

    Its on my short list of gear. 60.0p or something? About 10 or 20 more than the escape bivvt from SOL but waaaaaay more versatile.



    Hell this and a little sheet of clear plastic and you have a mini super shelter ready to go that takes up as much space as a nalgene and weighs probably under a lb.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2016
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  37. GunGoBoom

    GunGoBoom I'm not lost, I've just misplaced myself. Supporter Bushclass I

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    I'm still waiting for my doobie express to be delivered but I took a 9 liter dry bag and stuffed it with my Wiggy's Woobie and my poncho with some room to spare. There was one unintended but very welcome property of the Grab-it I had not anticipated. With MOLLE pouches there is a tendency to flop around. The Kifaru is attached and wraps around the belt so the more I stuff in it the more pressure is applied to the actual connection between the belt and the Grab-it. That means that it doesn't flop around like a MOLLE pouch. It is extremely stable.

    Edit: 9 liter dry bag not 5.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2016
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  38. ridge rover

    ridge rover Tracker

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    I have the Trifecta bivy ordered and will use it with my original Kifaru Doobie. I have high hopes this system will work well! A blanket inside a bivy seems to be a good inexpensive, use what ya got way to go!


    I did a lot or research on bivys at reasonable prices. Its between the Kelty Trail Bivy (sold out everywhere!) or the Trifecta bivy. They both are good sized bivys for bulky people, sleeping bags or big blankets.
    Kelty Trail Bivy | Backcountry Edge


    V2 Trifecta - thermal BIVVY*Blanket*Canopy [Green]
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2016
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  39. GunGoBoom

    GunGoBoom I'm not lost, I've just misplaced myself. Supporter Bushclass I

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    I will probably end up with the trifecta as well. I still haven't decided for sure yet.
     
  40. teb_atoz

    teb_atoz Guide Bushclass I

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    Down gives you the best insulation for compression ratio. Check out the Costco Down comforter. Check youtube to see what they look like. 700 fill down and one pound.

    cheers
     
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  41. GunGoBoom

    GunGoBoom I'm not lost, I've just misplaced myself. Supporter Bushclass I

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    While I do appreciate the qualities down offers it doesn't really fit the intent of this kit. I have a Feathered Friends 20 degree bag that I love and absolutely treasure but most of my "minimal" trips involve wading down the river bowfishing or my kayak. Add to that I am talking about using a poncho for overhead cover and weather has little to no influence on my decision to go on a trip. When you put it all together moisture becomes a huge factor. I may well get one of the down blankets to play around with but I have a hard time trusting myself to keep it dry in this role.
     
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  42. GunGoBoom

    GunGoBoom I'm not lost, I've just misplaced myself. Supporter Bushclass I

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    20160925_155609.jpg 20160925_155709.jpg 20160925_160037.jpg 20160925_160142.jpg

    So I put everything together on a the belt minus the bivy since I still haven't decided which direction to go on that. I ended up with a Thermarest Neoair Xlite short. The Doobie Express and Thermarest both fit into the dry bag and compress down pretty small.

    The Thermarest and Doobie are both sufficiently sized for me to be fully covered and everything above my knees insulated from the ground. It is still to warm to test temp ranges.

    I'm going to give this a few runs and see how it goes but the weight from the full canteen is looking like the failure point. If I can manage to even out the weight it may work but as it stands it really pulls down on the left side. If it doesn't work out I may just settle on using my Camelbak HAWG or adding a harness.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2016
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  43. Seeker

    Seeker Woods Bum Supporter Bushcraft Friend Bushclass I

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    I'd add a harness... what you have looks suspiciously like a USGI pistol belt and butt pack anyway... lol. Go with an old LBV... LOVED my vest... Was a little warm in the summer, vs the LBE straps, but it had pockets!

    Actually, I think they make very good/decent/comfortable rigs now, for hunters, that involve belts and suspenders, commercially.

    Re getting your down bag wet, you really have to try hard to do that. A plastic bag inside a waterproof bag (like one of those ones from Walmart, just a roll top) would do it.
     
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  44. Red Wing

    Red Wing Supporter Supporter

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    Ill second the lbe straps.

    Another option we used to do was wear two canteens, one on each side.

    3rd option would be to add a bandolier strap. You can repurpose any shoulder strap from any cheap computer bag or the like.
     
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  45. GunGoBoom

    GunGoBoom I'm not lost, I've just misplaced myself. Supporter Bushclass I

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    I've got an H harness buried in the closet somewhere. I'll need to modify it to work with this belt. I definitely don't want to add another canteen. I'm trying to keep the weight down as much as possible.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2016
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  46. reppans

    reppans Scout

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    Love it.... ultralight "buttpacking," .... couldn't resist :D

    [​IMG]

    Inside - Camping and Bushcraft (minus ax).
     
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  47. Squirr

    Squirr Scout

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    Nice kit Cro! Do you know the weight of all of it together?


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
  48. Red Wing

    Red Wing Supporter Supporter

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    Dude, thats a sweet pack!

    If it had a shoulder strap attachment and webbing for a pad underneath otd be my perfect buttpack.

    I have a MS Day w strappettes i used this summer that was fantastic. Loooved the carry. And the look on peoples faces when we breezed by them, and then to see how great our camp still was.
     
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  49. Birdman

    Birdman Scout

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    I use a Kelty trail bivy with a Snug Pak Jungle blanket. Works quite well and doesn't weigh much, or take up much space.
     
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  50. GunGoBoom

    GunGoBoom I'm not lost, I've just misplaced myself. Supporter Bushclass I

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    Just a quick update. I used the the Doobie express with a Thermarest Neoair Xlite down to the mid 30's give or take. The results were mixed. While the express did have more than sufficient insulation to keep me warm the size made it very awkward to keep the heat in. If I moved even slightly it would lift one side up and I would lose my heat. I love the wearable design and will still keep the Express around to throw in a daypack as a jacket/afternoon nap blanket but I think I need something a little bigger for a primary insulation option. Perhaps a bivy would have mitigated some of those issues? Maybe a regular doobie or start looking into DIY options? 20161025_160042.jpg
     
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