Target, That French Department store.

Discussion in 'General Bushcraft Discussion' started by smokechoker19, Sep 10, 2009.

  1. smokechoker19

    smokechoker19 Scout

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    Dick Forrey of the Vietnam Veterans Association wrote;
    >
    > 'Recently we asked the local TARGET store to be a proud
    > sponsor of the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Wall during our
    > spring recognition event .
    >
    > We received the following reply
    > from the local TARGET management:
    > ' Veterans do not meet our
    > area of giving . We only donate to the arts, social action groups, gay & lesbian causes, and education . '
    >
    > So I'm thinking, if the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Wall and
    > veterans in general, do not meet their donation criteria,
    > then something is really wrong at this TARGET store . We were
    > not asking for thousands of dollars, not even hundreds, just a small sponsorship for a memorial remembrance .
    >
    > As a follow-up, I E-mailed the TARGET U . S . Corporate
    > Headquarters and their response was the same .
    > That's their national policy!
    >
    > Then I looked into the company further . . .They will not allow
    > the Marines to collect for 'Toys for Tots' at any of their stores . . . And during the recent Iraq deployment, they would
    > not allow families of employees who were called up for active duty to continue their insurance coverage while they were on military service . Then as I dig further,
    >
    > TARGET is a French-owned corporation .
    >
    > Now, I'm thinking again . If TARGET cannot support American
    > Veterans, then why should my family and I support their stores by spending our hard earned American dollars!
    > And,
    > have their profits sent to France ?
    >
    > Without the American
    > Vets, where would France be today?
    >
    > 'They, most likely would be speaking German and trading in Deutsch Marks'
    >
    > Sincerely,
    > Dick Forrey
    > Veterans Helping Veterans
    >
    > Please send this on
    > to everyone you know
    > to let Target know
    > we don't need them either !
    > :p
     
  2. Zengunfighter

    Zengunfighter Guide

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  3. sbkittrell

    sbkittrell Guide

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    That's interesting Zen. But just for the sake of argument, not making any accusations here. What exactly makes Snopes the end all for rumor control? I've used snopes myself to correct misinformation, most recently the email that's been going around about the Blair/Holt bill. But it just struck me, how do I know that Snopes itself is accurate? Not saying that it isn't, but has anybody done any documentation on who runs and owns Snopes? Just curious.
     
  4. GreyOne

    GreyOne Elder Lifetime Supporter

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    Snopes has been demonstrated to be a "liberal" oriented source, with apparent buas on some issues. Not deliberately deceptive, but operating from a limited viewpoint through their own biased perceptions. YMMV.
     
  5. Oblio13

    Oblio13 Guest

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    Here I go, off on one of my celebrated controversial tangents:

    The French bashing that has become common, especially in these pseudo-patriotic emails circulating on the internet, is unwarranted and hypocritical. They fought magnificently in Vietnam. They took horrendous casualties in WWII and WWI, orders of magnitude more than we did, and from a far smaller population. We gave up in Vietnam, Somalia and Lebanon far more easily than they ever did. And I suspect that Iraq and Afghanistan will soon be added to the list.
     
  6. Echo4v

    Echo4v Scout

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    I clicked on the link and it says that this is a true letter ( even though misconstrued) it also says target contributes to organizations it doesn't say that they allow front of the store soliciting ( in fact it says that they specifically don't allow that, no boy scouts, toys for tots, salvation army or any other group is allowed to solicit donations at their stores) However, none of this really bothers me that much to be honest.


    What really bothers me about target is that what small portion of their profits that stay in America go to lobbyist groups. You look it up to find out which, ( I promise you won't be happy) but it really chaps my backside that a company that is only here for the profit and doesn't want anything but money from Americans wants to have it's hand in running our country.

    David
     
  7. Oblio13

    Oblio13 Guest

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    ??

    It says that almost everything in the letter is a blatant lie.
     
  8. Echo4v

    Echo4v Scout

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    Read it again, not just the top part that says true or false. It says the guy wrote the letter in anger to his veterans group and that it was misconstrued and used in ways he did not intend. It is however an actual letter written by the man, whether his statements are true or not is not what I was speaking of. ( I should have been more clear in my statement)

    Well I tried to copy and paste but it won't let me, read the part under the green area of the website.

    David
     
  9. smokechoker19

    smokechoker19 Scout

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    Well, I guess i stimulated conversation.

    Smoke
     
  10. Oblio13

    Oblio13 Guest

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    That's what internet discussion forums are for.
     
  11. GreyOne

    GreyOne Elder Lifetime Supporter

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    Not to "bash"the French or anything, but, they are NOT our friends. They are an ally when convenient- to them or to us- but they are acting purely from their own perceived self interests, as are we. Never count on the French to back us- never trust them to stay with us- and never believe that we have common interests on most issues.
    When "realpolitik" causes our interests to coincide, that is sometimes convenient, but it should never be considered more than an alliance of convenience, from either side.
    (And btw,their casualties in WW I were one thing, but in WW II, it was from the disastrous collapse of their field forces, and not from any sustained campaign. I do not consider the Vichy government to have been a surprise, or at all atypical of French attitudes and values.)
     
  12. IdahoBackwoods

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    The Vietnam Veterans of America website has quite a discussion of this chain-email, which has been circulating and mutating SINCE 2002:

    http://www.vva.org/pr/VVA-TargetEmailHoax.html

    Snopes.com is not the only fact-checking site to debunk this urban legend. Just Google for the phrase "Dick Forrey" and you'll see a bunch of them. For example,

    http://www.breakthechain.org/exclusives/target2.html

    I agree with Zen that this message has the characteristic sound of a hoax. For example, the exhortation to "pass this on to everyone you know," the bogus claim that Target is French, and the fact that the organization name under Forrey's name at the end of the message is different from the organization name at the top of the message.

    In this case, Dick Forrey appears to be a real person who approached Target in an ill-conceived way, was refused, sent an email that was at least partly unfair, and then saw his email mutated by many malicious people over the next seven years. In its present form, I think it qualifies as an urban legend. Just my opinion -- YMMV.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2009
  13. Oblio13

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    They could legitimately say exactly the same thing about us.
     
  14. GreyOne

    GreyOne Elder Lifetime Supporter

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    I thought I just did ! :)
     
  15. Bushpuukko

    Bushpuukko Guide

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    Too political for me! :(
     
  16. IdahoBackwoods

    IdahoBackwoods Guide

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    I'm curious who "demonstrated" it to be "liberal oriented." If you're curious about who owns Snopes.com, just Google this: "Who owns snopes?" You'll see that this has been discussed a number of times. Also, you might check out http://urbanlegends.about.com/od/internet/a/snopes_exposed.htm .

    But why take any single fact-checking site's word on anything? There are a number of such sites: snopes.com, truthorfiction.com, breakthechain.org, urbanlegends.about.com, and so on.

    For fact-checking political claims, there are factcheck.org, politifact.com/truth-o-meter/ and others.

    We are currently being bombarded with impressive-sounding statistics from impressively-named, self-styled "think tanks." To find out who actually runs these organizations, you can use sourcewatch.org

    The Internet is a wonderful source for both information and misinformation, so I use fact-checking sites frequently. I have them bookmarked under Entertainment/Hoaxes & Legends.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2009
  17. sbkittrell

    sbkittrell Guide

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  18. Tacticalgearhead

    Tacticalgearhead Scout

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    Letters like that are always suspect, and whenever I read one of those I try to Google the source of those letters. Sometimes they come up as genuine, and sometimes not. Target, like so many other corporations, give to lobbyists to promote their business and marketing. Corporations want to make money, a profit. Since when has making a profit been unappealing? This is why America continues to charge ahead, because of the lure of the profit. Without money making there is no incentive to work hard.

    Does some of that money go abroad? Sure it does, like any good corporation trying to expand, you have in invest in opportunities and grow. If you become stagnant you will fail. If you are wanting to make money these days, you have to find the people who can supply you with the goods cheaply, and they are usually the Chinese. You can get all those goods in the US, but then you will be paying more for it, and those costs will be passed on to the consumers like you and me. Judging from some of our threads, we complain if we have to pay $300 dollars for a good boot, can you imagine the level of our complaints if we had to pay $10 dollars for a spatula?

    Similarly, since we are in an international world, how many US companies are not located in other countries and making huge profits in overseas markets that they then bring back to the United States? We complain that foreign companies in America export our money back to their own country, but we do exactly the same thing. Granted we have a huge trade deficit with China, but that's not always the case with other countries.

    About Target, they donate a lot of money to charities. They get hit up for money every day, but hundreds, if not thousands to charities, and they cannot donate to every one. They are big on education, so they give a lot to schools. A lot of people complain because they don't allow solicitations outside their shops. I for one, enjoy not being hassled every time I try to go into a store. Also, having worked with nonprofit fundraising, the money you get from standing outside a store asking for money, is very little compared to what you could get for just a few minutes of work during a corporate ask or writing a good grant. If Target doesn't want people asking for money outside their stories, that's their policy. If Target wants to give to lobbyists, they are allowed to do so. These hated lobbyists, are also the ones that push for stores and jobs in their communities, and have probably greased the wheels for our and consumers' benefits more than once. Not all lobbyists are bad and not all lobbyists are good. Heck, even the Veterans Groups have their own lobbyists, do we consider them good or bad?

    As for the French, having lived in the Swiss Alps, I've had the pleasure of watching the French alpine troops train on occasion across the border. These guys were hardcore. The French fought hard in World War I and II as well, bet there's not much you can do when your enemy is technically superior in machine and strategy, and your politicians opt for surrender. When I visited Normandy I've never met any people who loved Americans more than the French people up there. The French Foreign Legion, though it's made up of foreigners, are lead by French officers, and have fought brilliantly in almost every campaign, especially in Algeria. The Algerian war was brutal. The French Foreign Legion is also protecting the European space agency down in South America, and are brilliant jungle fighters down there.

    Let's not forget that the French were our allies in the past, they helped us against the British, they even gave us the Statue of Liberty, but the French are a separate country and people, and have their own foreign policy and strategy, and that does not always mesh with ours. We may complain about the French abandoning this and that, and being weak. But we pretty much abandoned the Kurds after the first Gulf War when we had promised that we would protect them and get them money and weaponry if they would keep Saddam's troops occupied in the North. We even suggested we might support their statehood. These were empty promises that our politicians made to a people, just like we went charging into Somalia. Still, no matter what happens, this is our country, right or wrong. We might not always agree with her policy, just like French people don't always agree with their government (remember these were the guys who chopped off the heads of their monarchy and aristocracy), but we should respect that we are each separate entities and both have a legitimate right no pursue their own interests. I believe a reading of David Fromkin's "The Indepedence of Nations" will give you a deeper understanding of this subject.

    "It is not so in international affairs. In politics among nations, there is no influence without power. There is also no enfranchisement as of right; there is no entitlement to a voice or a vote in the making of international decisions. A state cannot advance its views except through the use of its power. A state cannot exist unless it has the power to compel other states to recognize its sovereign independence. There is no world government to guarantee and secure the rights of states or the inviolability of their frontiers or even their bare survival." (Fromkin, p. 22-23)

    We yield our power around the globe, so it should come to no surprise that other nations do the same. The UN is a paper tiger, and resolutions are meaningless. Our staunchest ally Israel has violated more resolutions than almost any other nation, yet they yield enormous power in the Middle East. The UN was there, but not there, for the men, women and children that were slaughtered in Srebrenica. I still think about that and remember the images that I saw on TV.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica_massacre

    Anyhow, just wanted to add my 2 cents.
     
  19. Nightside_Eclipse

    Nightside_Eclipse Scout

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    I'd say the French have had enough of killing in war and trying to rule the world so they stopped.

    Sounds like a good plan for more folks to follow to me...
     
  20. sbkittrell

    sbkittrell Guide

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    Actually the French government at the present time is probably more conservative than our current government. They seem to be moving away from socialism, while we are moving towards it. I never thought I'd see that day. Hurry up 2010 elections!
     
  21. sbkittrell

    sbkittrell Guide

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    That's one of the problems with today's society. Who exactly do we believe? It's all just words on a computer screen. Fact checking consists of comparing one set of words with another set of words. Knowledge gained through personal observation is extremely rare nowdays. Even "facts" we learn in school are, many times, just words written in books. Some things we learn can be verified through mathmatics or personal observation, but history, politics, sociology, government, etc., all that "knowledge" is gained from words written by people we never even meet or know. I don't know the solution, just making an observation. The media, meaning TV, books, magazines, newpapers, radio and the internet consists of nothing more than marks on a computer screen, paper, or sounds we hear. They have a HUGE power to influence how we think though.
     
  22. Oblio13

    Oblio13 Guest

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    The classical tests for truth, written about by both the Buddha and Einstein, are: Logic, reason and experience.
     
  23. Faol

    Faol Guest

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    LOL...that you did.
     
  24. Chena

    Chena Scout

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    There is an old saying. "Actions speak louder than words." Opinions vary, but actions speak the truth. I don't hate the French, but I am not impressed with their actions from the last.... oh 200+ years to the present.
    Not saying that America is perfect either, or that we should bash the French like they bash us; however, their disdain for us is vividly apparent, so one could not expect the US citizens to not be offended.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2009
  25. Oblio13

    Oblio13 Guest

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    You've never been to France, have you?
     
  26. rik_uk3

    rik_uk3 Guest

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    WW1 they took a massive hit (as did Britain, defending them), but WW2? don't think so, check your sums. Indo China? they presumed to much and had become legends in their own minds. FFL were and are good, amongst the best in the world, the rest not so good. You don't see many French, Dutch or German troops dying in the field these days do you? Not compared to US and British deaths now do you? I don't care if you or I have faith in the motives behind these conflicts (then or now) but I sure as hell support the guys and girls out there doing their thing whether right or wrong in some peoples eyes. The French? F**k um.
     
  27. Oblio13

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    According to Wikipedia:

    France lost 567,600 out of a population of 41.7 million, or 1.35%
    The UK lost 449,800 out of a population of 47.8 million, or .94%
    The US lost 418,500 out of a population of 131 million, or .32%

    What do I win? :D


    Edited to add some morbidly fascinating statistics:

    Germany lost 9%
    Greece and Latvia lost over 11%
    Lithuania lost 13.71%
    The Russians lost 14.18%
    Poland lost over 16%
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 11, 2009
  28. Iz

    Iz MEMBER of a BANNED Vendor Bushclass I Bushclass Instructor

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    Let me say that I don't have a dog in this fight. I'm not French and don't know much of anything about their history. But this thread reminded me of this.
    The complete military history of France
    I thought it was good for a chuckle.
    Later,
    Iz
     
  29. Trekon86

    Trekon86 Guest

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    Target is a business like any other and as such makes decisions that contribute toward its well-being. Some of these rules include not allowing solicitations (I like that too bud:)) and donating to charities.

    France has never won a war of their own (well except for the Algerian conflict as noted) but it is not due to any pussyfootedness among their soldiers. It is due, like any other lost battle in history, to the fickleness of the political elite and the unwillingness of the military to "just do it" and break t.he orders given them to withdraw.

    IIRC though France technically won the war, it was pretty much all for nothing as Charles de Gaulle granted the Algerians independence and the veterans of that war who opposed independence and who had fought to preserve French colonial rule were pretty pissed. They formed the OAS and went underground, robbing banks to fund an attempted assassination.

    The story (partly embellished no doubt) was done up in semi-documentary form in a film called "The Day of the Jackal." There was a modernized remake of it, not correct at all (completely different) but still damn cool.

    I dled the original and still have it!
    PMZ
     
  30. sbkittrell

    sbkittrell Guide

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    You win a brand new pair of elevator shoes. Extra tall.
     
  31. Tacticalgearhead

    Tacticalgearhead Scout

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    Trekon, Day of the Jackal was an excellent book, and the 60's were a scary time for the French. There was a real danger and fear in Paris that French paratroopers would fly in from Algeria and take over the government. A little fear adds spice to life, eh? :)
     
  32. Keyser Söze

    Keyser Söze Usual Suspecto Supporter Bushcraft Friend

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    target insulting my inteligence

    i have a target close where i live and on occasion i get toiletries from them...they are the same everywhere,, so i was looking for some toothpaste and saw a deal -same company- same size- same product- 2 for $6.96 and to purchase it individually just one toothpaste tube -same company- same size- same product- 1for $3.09 can you spot the problem ?:D
    I saw this in many stores different products ...when you see a deal 2-3 package .... see the price of 1 and do the math I HAVE PICS OF THIS IN MY CELLPHONE from a week ago
     
  33. GreyOne

    GreyOne Elder Lifetime Supporter

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    Oh, yes- the giant economy size bargain price special lollapaloozer deal! It seems to be getting more common. Walgrens yesterday had 4 pkg of AA batteries for 3.09,
    right next to the same brand / type AA batteries in a TWO
    pack for 98cents. I did the math. <G>.
     

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