40 S&W facts and fancies

Discussion in 'Firearms' started by randyt, Oct 8, 2019.

  1. randyt

    randyt Guide

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    any thoughts on the 40 s&w ? I noticed Classic Arms has some police trade in glocks at a good price.
     
  2. scottman

    scottman Bushmaster

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  3. randyt

    randyt Guide

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    I don't own a glock but have been thinking about picking up a couple
     
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  4. Cwlongshot

    Cwlongshot Supporter Supporter

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    Well there is many haters, I find most are simply uninformed. :p.

    CW
     
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  5. scottman

    scottman Bushmaster

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    but haven’t you been saying that since I was at the cabin ?! Lol buy buy buy
     
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  6. Theangrywelder

    Theangrywelder Tracker

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    I use to have a 40 but I ended up selling it to a friend of mine mainly because I did not like the S&W trigger pull. I don't have a issue with the caliber but I am not a fan of the trigger pull on S&W pistols. If I were buying a new pistol I would look at Springfield, Sig.
     
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  7. scottman

    scottman Bushmaster

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  8. randyt

    randyt Guide

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    yea but something else seems to come up lol but now business is good. I would like to order a pair.
     
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  9. roadwarrior

    roadwarrior Supporter Supporter Bushcraft Friend

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    Glock 23, I love it and I have it resting in a warm dry place. I also cary it in the woods as my defense gun.
     
  10. scottman

    scottman Bushmaster

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    I feel like you should also get something that’s super modern too just to balance things randy ..... perhaps a hellcat and a sig 365
     
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  11. randyt

    randyt Guide

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    maybe
     
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  12. Jeffa

    Jeffa Scout

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    I like .40 a lot. The nice thing about .40 is you can get a conversion barrel and shoot 9mm for pretty cheap also. I'm a sucker for a gun that can shoot multiple calibers.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2019
  13. Cwlongshot

    Cwlongshot Supporter Supporter

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    Another nice thing with a 40. Most all can become what a 9mm wants to be with a barrel swap into 357SIG!

    I bought a M24 Glock last year and had a 357SIG barrel waiting. I shot it as a SIG before a 40!

    I shoot a G35 in competition. I also have a few carbines so chambered. I like it allot.

    CW
     
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  14. Jeffa

    Jeffa Scout

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    I agree. It took about 3000 rounds to break the trigger in on my S&W. Its smooth now, but it was a ruff break in.
     
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  15. Grouse870

    Grouse870 Scout

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    Great caliber. Probably one of the better woods calibers in an auto imo.
     
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  16. field-expedient

    field-expedient Misfit Supporter Bushclass II

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    I killed this bear with a .40
    Image (2).jpg
     
  17. JeffG

    JeffG Guide

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    As the senior weapons trainer of a small police department, I think the 40S&W has a lot going for it. We started 20 years ago with 1st generation S&W Sigmas. They were not well not well designed, and we went to Glocks. I managed a stable of about 30 Glocks over 3 generations of them and 20 years. Glock 23's 22's and 27's.
    We never had a malfunction that we could attribute to the gun. Ammo, shooter, sure...but not the gun. Early on, we tested our ammo on 3D dummies, with our old (NIJ II) bullet resistant vests. FMJ truncated flat point practice ammo penetrated the vests regularly. That's why we went to Hydra Shok for duty ammo, in case of an officer gun take-away, at least the officer's vest would stop it.

    Long story short, I had the opportunity to buy my G23 early on when we traded in for G22's. I have logged 20, 000 rounds through it and replaced only minor parts. Recoil spring and takedown spring. I know of many that have 10,000 round through them, no problem.

    They are great guns, and the .40 is substantial.
     
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  18. randyt

    randyt Guide

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    The trade ins Classic Arms have are generation 3, model 22, they are running a bit shy of 300 dollars.
     
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  19. scottman

    scottman Bushmaster

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    That’s exactly what I purchased from them randy on my last order
     
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  20. Paulyseggs

    Paulyseggs Supporter Supporter

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    Basically a reborn 38/40.

    I'd be happy with a small pocket 40. Ccw/HD & woods. Change the bullet and cover both bases.
    Good HP and a solid should do it.
     
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  21. ozarkhunter

    ozarkhunter Guide Vendor

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    I picked up a G22 Gen4 police trade in locally and really like it. A friend is in charge of qualifying all of the officers for the department mine came from. He said most of these trade ins were likely only fired during qualifications. I put a Hogue Handall grip sleeve on mine and it fills my hand nicely. I honestly feel less recoil from the G22 than I did the PT111 G2 that I traded in on it.
     
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  22. Riverpirate

    Riverpirate Supporter Supporter

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    I have a every 40 cal Glock Model ever made. I am now working on 9mm models. I still prefer the 40 cal. I also have a couple of 10mm models.
     
  23. scottman

    scottman Bushmaster

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    you might even get lucky like me randy I picked up a 9mm conversion barrel for 35 dollars and a 9” 357 sig barrel for not much . Igb makes 10 inch and 16 inch barrels and since you’re not in shotgun zone you could even do a 40 or 357 sig Glock carbine ! Theyre really lightweight !
     
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  24. oldpinecricker

    oldpinecricker Supporter Supporter

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    The 40 is my answer to packing a big 357 revolver. I've got the 22 and 23 Glock models. I'm not a Glock fan but I own them out of sheer economy and utility and availibility. I am fond of the 40 as ammo is decently priced and Federal 180 fmj runs just over 1000 fps out of my Glock 22. It has a nice big flat nose and is still reliable. It's not a 44mag or rifle type power but it's definately a bit more than any of my 9mm options and those who poo poo that haven't shot any critters or with such. Personally I've shot a large black bear with 9mm and whitetail with 40 so I've a small amount of field experiance. The 180gr 40 load is quite good and better on critters than 9mm, and I will also admit the 357 is better on critters than 9mm.

    Bottom line is the 40 gets a bad rap and it's a fine choice if one desires a good field pistol with a bit more displacement than 9mm yet it's not fierce in recoil. There's nothing wrong with the 40 and having cheap trade in Glocks is a bonus. Like buying a hammer you don't care about breaking or if it gets wear. I like that mentality.
     
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  25. Kennebago

    Kennebago Scout

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    .40 is fine if it suits your needs. Additional barrier penetration, makes power factor for games, etc, etc.

    For the average person in a defensive handgun it doesn't make much of a of difference except for small increases in cost per round and perceived recoil. Most people pay for their own ammo so cost is the bigger deal usually.

    All of my handguns are 9mm. For my purposes, .40 S&W is the worst of the 9mm and .45 Auto worlds with none of their advantages. Other people's results vary widely.
     
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  26. icemancometh

    icemancometh Stuck in Suburbia Supporter

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    I currently have 3 pistols in 40SW, Glock 22, SW M&P 40 (which was a police trade in from Aim Surplus), and a SW Shield. I think Aim still has the MP's for $239.00. Mine was in great shape with just a little holster wear on the butt. Came with 2 mags, hard case and extra backstraps, has night sights, but they are a little dim. May want to check them out unless your set on a Glock.
     
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  27. Invictvs138

    Invictvs138 Tracker

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    I guess I am the dissenter here ... I’m not a big fan of the .40 S&W at least in a subcompact. But I might be a taker the OPs deal & here’s why..

    The first .40 I shot was a 1911- and I thought it was great, so I picked up a G27 (yes I should have just bought a 1911). I could never shoot a G27 with a fast follow ups at defensive distances - I found .40 to be too snappy in a subcompact. I’m not a Glock hater as have owned several over time, but they have all moved on down the line. That absolute best thing about Glocks is that they lose very little value in resale. For me - I’m just not crazy about the stock triggers. As a pistol shooter I am heavily dependent on trigger control for accuracy - others may not be so. I had a G21 that I changed everything - trigger connector, barrel, etc - that turned out to be a great USPSA pistol. FOR ME - the stock M&P triggers are better. (To me, the Ruger striker fired autos are 100% Glock clones - had at not bad deals for those that love the Glock triggers) And the easy, inexpensive availability of 9mm factory ammo make it the clear winner that allows me to practice at least once every week, to stay proficient. I believe in having a weapon “system” so supply of a decent quantity for training is essential, for me. I reload more expensive rounds.

    A huge plus to .40 is that it was always available during the shortage. So it wouldn’t hurt to have one. If I went for another .40 it would be a full- size pistol. Good luck finding .45 ACP or 9mm in a shortage here in Ohio...
     
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  28. Old Buzzard

    Old Buzzard Tracker

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    I have owned lots and lots of .40's, and they will get the job done as will any other self defense/duty caliber. IMHO the single greatest thing about the .40 is the fact that the FBI's insistence on using it forced bullet/ammo manufactures to develop better ammo/bullets to get it to preform. All other calibers reaped the same benefits. Shoot/carry what makes you feel warm and fuzzy, but as the saying goes it's the Indian not the arrow!
     
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  29. Park Swan

    Park Swan Maker Vendor

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    I understand people liking 40, I just never will because of the cost.
     
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  30. scottman

    scottman Bushmaster

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    For hunting/defensive ammo or training ammo ?
     
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  31. Park Swan

    Park Swan Maker Vendor

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    Training. But I'm also not rich or a collector so I wont buy something that seems redundant. I could see converting a 23 to 10mm, then using a 9mm barrel for training purposes, though.

    But straight up shooting 40cal for $.05/round price difference, I don't see the advantage.
     
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  32. scottman

    scottman Bushmaster

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    10mm is around 30 cents a round . What’s your trajectory differences between the rounds at the distance you will be shooting ?

    what do you personally shoot that’s alive with 9mm pistols ? (I’ve only shot a pest woodchuck nothing major)
     
  33. Park Swan

    Park Swan Maker Vendor

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    9mm for self defense, which is why training cost matters to me. 10mm is more expensive but does a lot more, and I may be interested in hunting with it in the future. 40 is more expensive but does little more.

    I won't be using my defensive handgun or hunting at any distances where trajectory will play a factor at any time in the forseeable future.
     
  34. Pinelogcreek

    Pinelogcreek Supporter Supporter

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    I have fired untold thousands of rounds through various Glock pistols and I have three right now. My first generation Glock 22 still runs flawlessly and looks good despite the holster wear. The pistol is as solid and reliable as the come. The caliber is a personal choice but I have no issue with the .40 for man or beast in my area. That price is good and many LE guns see very little shooting despite being carried a lot.
     
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  35. Moe M.

    Moe M. Supporter Supporter

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    I wonder why so many Police agencies round the country including the FBI is ditching their .40 S&W's and going back to the venerable old 9mm Luger ?
     
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  36. Dave_Markowitz

    Dave_Markowitz Supporter Supporter

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    .40 S&W was developed to the give the ballistics of the FBI's 10mm service load in a more compact package. The FBI originally adopted 10mm because of perceived shortcomings of the then-available 9mm loads. 10mm requires a large frame gun. .40 can fit into frames designed for 9mm.

    Everything else being equal, .40 service loads have more recoil than 9mm, and the pistols hold fewer rounds. Combined with the fact that the 9mm had benefitted greatly in the past 10 - 20 years from JHP development, for most police use there is no advantage to the .40. So, most PDs seem to be reverting back to 9mm.
     
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  37. DirtmanDave

    DirtmanDave Supporter Supporter

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    @Moe M. Idk about the reasons as I'm retired LEO now but my chief said the state was switching to 9mm and recommend all other agencies to do the same, so my old department switch from 40 to 9.
    I carry a 1911 .45acp or S&W Bodyguard in .380 in my pocket.
     
  38. PERRO

    PERRO Supporter Supporter

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    The information " I " have received. Main issues with " Qualifications " : I.E., Very Low Scores / Failure to Qualify.

    As mentioned in several of the above posts.. Many of the " LEO's " trade-ins ( .40 ) were in very good condition, as they were primarily used only, for their attempts to " Qualify ". :eek:


    4 important factors in the 9mm pistol debate

    2. Less recoil makes the 9mm easier to shoot, especially for “small statured” officers.
    Shooting — including the recoil factor — is primarily a mental exercise, not physical. I recently saw a small-statured female go through basic police training with a Glock 22. Her hand was almost completely around the right side of the pistol for her finger to reach the trigger. She wasn’t top-gun in her class — and needed remedial training to pass — but pass she did. Like other aspects of a program skewed in favor of big guys, she mentally decided to succeed — and did. ..........."

    https://www.policeone.com/police-pr...rs-in-the-9mm-pistol-debate-Jd7QnoOaCK1iQ48s/


    The Reasons Why FBI Went to Back to 9mm

    August 8, 2018 by The Arms Guide Guest Writer 20 Comments

    The FBI has selected Glock Gen 5 handguns in 9mm as their service weapon. There has been much speculation about the reasons for their caliber change. There is a short answer, science. The did the research and they did the math.

    Spoiler Alert: “While some law enforcement agencies have transitioned to larger calibers from the 9mm in recent years, they do so at the expense of reduced magazine capacity, more felt recoil, and given adequate projectile selection, no discernible increase in terminal performance.”........................."

    https://loadoutroom.com/51037/the-reasons-why-fbi-went-to-back-to-9mm/
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2019
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  39. Moe M.

    Moe M. Supporter Supporter

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    I rest my case, thank you gentlemen. :dblthumb:
    Thank you brother, I'm retired LE as well, serving as Patrol Sgt., Department FBI certified firearms instructor, dept. armorer, and regional SWAT team member.
     
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  40. Wapitilo

    Wapitilo Supporter Supporter

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    Just because so many can't handle the .40S&W does not mean it's not a good, reliable choice. Shoot it well and will you really notice a fifteen vs seventeen round capacity?
     
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  41. Cwlongshot

    Cwlongshot Supporter Supporter

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    It has nothing to do with anything but it was they are “told”. Powers to be decided to “tow the line” and they did. Bottom line is dollars and cents. Fact that the nations law enforcement has made the move is part and parcel to that.

    As long as things are paid for by others you will be required to use what they supply...

    CW
     
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  42. FreeMe

    FreeMe Guide

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    Since I already had 9mm and .45acp, I never saw a need for the forty. Now, with the 10mm gaining commonality, I see even less need for it. But if I didn't already have what I have, I'd probably get a .40 S&W first.
     
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  43. Kennebago

    Kennebago Scout

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    Because consensus is that today 9mm/.40 S&W/.45 Auto are (in rough terms) equally bad at killing people, .40 S&W costs more than 9mm, and it is easier to get departments qualified on 9mm because there are many more lowest common denominator shooters than you would think.

    The last two bullets are why striker-fired handguns supplanted double action pistols in police use over the last ~30 years and are now moving to 9mm.

    The other thing to keep in mind is that there are an uncomfortable number of large agencies that flat-out struggle with marksmanship training, and some of them even make lazy equipment decisions to compensate (NYPD jacking up issued Glock trigger weights to 10-12 pounds for "safety" is a prime example).
     
  44. scottman

    scottman Bushmaster

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    How often will Randy Carry these firearms? how often will he shoot fmj ammo through them? What is the primary reason for purchasing and carrying a 40?
     
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  45. 1773

    1773 Supporter Supporter

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    The reason agencies are switching to 9 is partially because bullet technology has improved that much in the past 25 years, partially because the 9 usually has 2 more rounds on board than the same handgun in 40, the reduced recoil/muzzle flip makes follow up shots faster, shooters generally shoot the 9mm more accurately when comparing identical firearms except for caliber. Also one of the huge reasons is because the FBI said it is "THE Cartridge", I truly believe if the FBI said that a 22 using CB caps was the ideal handgun that a lot of agencies would trip over themselves to switch to it. Most agencies only want to do the minimum amount of training they can to get the officers to shoot a qualifying score often on a very easy course of fire.

    Now with all that said, the 40 is a fine cartridge, it does what a handgun cartridge is supposed to do, it is not a death ray but it is not a weakling either. I carry one everyday and have no issues with it at all, if you want one it will serve you well as has been said it has slightly more recoil and muzzle blast than the 9mm and is slightly more expensive. In all the shootings that I have accurate knowledge of it has always preformed well when the bullets are placed where they need to be.
     
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  46. JeffG

    JeffG Guide

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    In a VERY un-PC response....better scores with people who are non shooters, and aren't dedicated to training on their own. It makes the department trainers look better. Second reason, grip circumference. Smaller hands of both genders of new officers. Pretty much gone are the days of ex-military and the football jocks from high school (male) who hunt, fish and handle manual labor tools and firearms in their off time, being your average new officer.
     
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  47. Pinelogcreek

    Pinelogcreek Supporter Supporter

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    All these changes made my head hurt as a cop. Started carrying a .357 magnum the magnum rounds were overkill so we went to 38. Then everyone wanted semi auto but no department wanted to buy them so many went 1911. Then standardization struck and the feds went Sig 40 so we went there, The sig 229 was terrible so we went Glock .40, now I have a Glock 9mm. Same with long guns first 12ga was good, then the call for rifles so we got Ruger carbines as the AR was to military looking. Now we have AR’s and need more power so the AR-10 is coming around. All this mess is political in nature, well placed rounds all do the same job regardless of commonly carried caliber. As for me I prefer the 1911 and a 12ga, but I’m a dinosaur.
     
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  48. JeffG

    JeffG Guide

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    Arguably, the development of the .40 S&W pivoted upon the Miami/Dade FBI shootout. That's when cop killings were still fairly rare. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout

    Long story short, the FBI seemed to come to three conclusions over the incident:

    Russel Matix should have laid down, and died after he was first shot. (For Pete's sake!)

    The service pistol failed to stop the bad guys, even though the bad guys were shot repeatedly, and agent lives were lost because of it. (not taking into account tactics or more appropriate firearms.)

    We (the FBI) need to develop a completely new pistol round, and we can spend lots of money to do it.

    They somewhat ignored the fact that agents faced well motivated rifle fire; and that they were outgunned.

    The whole issue of shooting center mass vs. head shots and CNS hits hadn't been developed yet. You shot center mass.

    Well, "stopping power" studies were everywhere, Fackler, Marshall and Sandow, Dr. Di Maio were all being mined for information on the best properties of handgun "stopping power". The Bren Ten was being developed, and praised by Col. Cooper. Theories and opinions were all over the place. Meanwhile, municipal and county cops were carrying revolvers, a lot of them were .357's stoked to the max. At the same time the 1911 was a very smart choice; but the cocked, exposed hammer scared the hell out of chiefs, sheriffs, and the public. The long gun choices were the Ithaca or Remington 12 gauge with buckshot.

    What seemed to bring law enforcement into widespread use of automatics was the FBI developing the .40, and the Glock.
    Chiefs and sheriffs were not open to change, and the transition was not welcome in a lot of areas. A lot of chiefs reasoned "if it's good enough for the FBI..." Departments that routinely allowed officers to shoot 50 rounds a year out of their revolvers, were now looking and four or five times that many rounds in training, sometimes multiple times a year. It was a huge adjustment.

    I can get into the transition to AR15 platform some other time, but that was equally slow.

    But now with bullet technology, we as a nation are going back to the 9mm, because the FBI is going back.

    Funny how things go.....:50:
     
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  49. coalsmoke

    coalsmoke Scout

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    I have a Glock 22 and love it. Great trigger and very accurate. Glock reliability. Plenty of power and mag capacity. What's not to love

    But

    There was some talk above about converting to 9mm. Do I just need a 9mm barrel? Will the mags work?
     
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  50. Moe M.

    Moe M. Supporter Supporter

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    A lot of good answers, but IMHO jeffG came the closest, the .40 S&W did indeed come about mainly because of the Miami Dade shoot out between a bunch of FBI agents and a couple of coked up bank robbers.
    The FBI agent in charge (the FBI's top handgun shooter) was carrying a S&W mod. 59 15 shot 9mm semi auto pistol, the rest of the agents were carrying agency issued .38 spec. S&W mod. 10 revolvers and had shotguns riding in the trunk of the their units.
    The agents were working on a bank robbery case and had very little intel except a certain make and model of car the bad guys were said to be using, the agents were teamed up in pairs and were patrolling an area they believed they might have a chance to spot the robber's car, and they did, not wanting to get the public involved in a cross fire the agents set themselves up to follow the vehicle until they could take them in a safer place.
    It's said that plans are great until the boots hit the ground, then the plans often go right out the window when the situation changes, this case was no different, something went wrong, the suspects car ended up pinned between a wall and one of the FBI chase vehicles, and the shootout was on, the bad guys had numerous guns in their car including a Ruger Mini 14 with loaded high cap magazines and .357mag. revolvers.
    In the initial contact the lead agent lost his eye glasses and couldn't see well enough without them to be able to shoot accurately, another agent had taken his revolver out of his holster and placed it on the front seat next to him, it was knocked off the seat onto the floor of his vehicle, in his haste he went to his back up gun a mod. 36 .38spec. 5 shot J-frame snubby revolver.
    In the exchange of gun fire several agents were killed and most of the others badly wounded, in the end one robber was still engaged and was shot by one of the last functioning agents ending the battle.
    In the aftermath the FBI decided that they needed to make changes in both firearms and their training policies, they put their chief armorer to work to find a more reliable service pistol and caliber to replace the issue guns that they were using at the time, after much research and consideration he came up with his suggestion, the .45ACP in either a 1911 platform or in a double action semi auto pistol.
    Here's where the politics comes in, the military had just convinced congress that the old 1911 pistol and it's .45 ACP cartridge were turn of the last century technology, were obsolete, and needed to be scrapped and replaced with the NATO 9mm cartridge and similar pistol, the FBI couldn't go back to congress and request the funding to purchase new old technology, nor could they imply that the military screwed up.
    So they commissioned S&W to work with an ammo maker and come up with a new cartridge that approximated the ballistics of the old .45ACP and a new fairly compact pistol to shoot it out of, and the .40 S&W was born.
    It's pros were it saved the FBI from having to be caught red faced in front of congress, it gave S&W a huge boost, and it gave gun magazines and their writers something to write about, mostly inaccurate.
    It's con's (where to start), the .40 S&W round over penetrates and actually has less shock value than the .45 ACP, it is harder to shoot accurately than the .45 ACP because of it's sharper recoil and inherent muzzle flip, it requires more training and practice to qualify officers to be proficient with it, it's a lot more expensive than either .45 ACP or 9mm ammo, there's more, but this should be enough.

    IMHO based on my LE experience the .40 S&W while a very capable round was the answer to a non existing problem, truth be told the .45 ACP or 9mm luger with the right modern ammo are still much better and more economical choices for LE or civilian use as personal protection handguns, as are .44 cal. and .357 mag. calibers are in revolvers.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2019
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