590 Shockwave!

Discussion in 'Firearms' started by Ahnkochee, Mar 4, 2017.

  1. Ahnkochee

    Ahnkochee Bushmaster

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    I didn't see a thread devoted exclusively to this new offering from Mossberg first seen at Shot Show 2017 in January. Classified as fully-compliant by the BATFE, this model requires no Tax Stamp for transfers even though it has a 14" barrel it's total length being 26.37" so over the 26" minimum required by law with it's bird's-head pistol grip.
    Probably not the most practical firearm but put a lanyard ring on it and let it hang ready at your hip while in grizz country would make me feel a tad more comfortable, an Alaskan salmon fisherman's best friend. I already own a 44 magnum revolver, and a shorty barrel 12 gauge pumpgun so I don't NEED a 590 Shockwave but I sure do WANT one. ;) MSRP: $455.00
    [​IMG]
    http://www.mossberg.com/category/se...JLpq8IzsWURrx2vTMnuhqFZWFsiK9w&_hsmi=43849095
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2017
  2. sweet trav

    sweet trav Supporter Supporter

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    ...the panhandle...and loving it!
    I'd take one for a truck gun or maybe a pack gun...or...well, let's just be honest...to have another gun. :)
     
  3. Bax 40

    Bax 40 Supporter Supporter

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    From my experience I still don't think that is a legal shotgun, the atf says a 18 in on shot guns and 16 on rifles, thats measured from the closed bolt to the end of the barrel.

    Just my opinion, I could be wrong!


    Larry
     
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  4. PeterCartwright

    PeterCartwright Guide

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    Looks kinda like the "blanket guns" of the fur trapping era. I'll better it's more fun to look at than to shoot. :)

    PC
     
  5. dub

    dub BCUSA Friend Bushcraft Friend

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    Are they classifying it as a pistol? That would be the only way to keep it from being an SBR/AOW right?
     
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  6. Bax 40

    Bax 40 Supporter Supporter

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    I don't believe it can be called a pistol either as they don't allow smoothbore pistols except black powder, the Judge and others like it are rifled barrels.

    Again, just my opinion, I could be wrong.

    Any of you folks that have fired a pistol grip shotgun probably know that they take some practice to get good with, they tend to shoot low for me.


    Larry

     
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  7. .356luger

    .356luger Scout

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    Screenshot_2017-03-04-15-27-20.png
    No it's not a pistol it's in a little niche in the ATF hand book. It maintains the ATF OAL requirements and shortens the barrel to 14" but the grip extends further than a pistol grip. Making up for that barrel shortening in the OAL area and it's not a pistol or a shotgun in the eyes of the ATF. I can't remember the verbage exactly but it has to be set on a frame that never had a butt stock only a pistol grip. It's just a fire arm
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2017
  8. highlander

    highlander Supporter Supporter

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    I asked a gun dealer the same question. He said there's a razor thin grey area...Remington and Mossberg have them listed not as a "short barreled shotgun" but as a 12 gauge "firearm."
    It skirts around the ATF regs in that grey area. Plus you have to be 21 to buy just like the Mare's Leg.
     
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  9. 1773

    1773 Guide

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    They fall into the same category as pistol gripped shotguns with an 18" barrel they are classified by BATFE as firearms, which is any firearm with an overall length of greater than 26" and no shoulder stock. The difference is you can put a shoulder stock on the 18" barrel firearm and make it a shotgun. If you put a shoulder stock on the shockwave you create a shortbarreled shotgun and would require an approved Form 1 and the payment of the 200 dollar tax.

    With that said, I suspect they will be popular simply for the novelty of them. A 12 gauge with defensive loads and a pistol grip is a handful and requires a lot of practice if used for anything other than breaching doors. Though this would be a handier package for those who choose to carry a pistol gripped "shotgun" and would provide just as good of performance as a 12 gauge defensive load gets what it is going to get velocity wise out of a 14" barrel. I would be more interested in it if it was available in 20 gauge as they are much easier to control.
     
  10. LongAgoLEO

    LongAgoLEO Guide

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    I'll stick with my high capacity 12ga KSG at 26.1". I can shoot from the hip or shoulder it.
     
  11. CaliforniaCanuck

    CaliforniaCanuck Guide

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    Under federal law they aren't a sbs or pistol and are legal. Your state law might require the barrel to be at least 18" so check you state law.

    I'm a fan of this type of grip on a pump shotgun and have had one for many years. It's what I consider my canoe gun. Just remember to never raise it above chest level!
     
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  12. Chuck-Cook

    Chuck-Cook Hobbyist Hobbyist Bushclass I

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    I'm on a list of a local gun shop, they get one in they are going to call me. I see it as a great all around gun for the woods, the look will scare away any 2 legged predators, and a load of #4 buck or 00 buck will handle all else. Throw in a few 7.5 rounds in case of emergency.

    Besides the just cause factor is high on this gun.
     
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  13. GittinSkinny

    GittinSkinny Supporter Supporter Bushcraft Friend

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    With all of the different laws state by state. I believe due care and caution are advised. Just because the feds won't stop it from being sold doesn't mean D.A.s won't try to prosecute. I would like to have one too. But, I'm not going to be the guinea pig. Looking at some of the sites that pop up in a search suggest that if it's concealed under a coat or anything, it an unregistered AOW. No, too much risk for too little gain, for now. +1 on Chuck-Cook's Just Cause Factor being very high.
     
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  14. Bigghoss

    Bigghoss Scout

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    The shockwave kinda falls through the cracks of NFA nonsense in that it's not legally a shotgun, pistol or anything else. It is just simply a "firearm". So at the federal level it's on the up-and-up, but you'll want to check your local laws to see how they define it before packing it around.

    As to it's use, I can't fathom a practical application where this would be the best choice. The only two reasons to buy one of these is as a range toy (which is a perfectly fine reason to buy it and why I will have one eventually) or to SBS and put a stock on. Maybe it would be a decent snake gun, seems the various .410 handguns would be a better choice but I've yet to try them out so what do I know? Grizzly? I'd sure hate to fire a slug out of that thing plus it's hard to aim. Seems like either going down to a revolver or up to a fullsize shotgun/rifle would be better but I've never been to the land of fur-covered school buses made of rage and hunger. I have shot shotguns quite a bit though, stocked and pistol gripped. There's even a speedfeed bird's head grip laying around my place somewhere because it just looked so cool and I had to have it. PG shotguns suck to use, a butt stock is just so much better. I will probably have a Shockwave one day, but it will be for the "dude, check THIS out" factor more than anything.
     
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  15. NCLivingBrit

    NCLivingBrit Guide

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    If they come out with a 20g model I'd be all over that.
     
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  16. GunGoBoom

    GunGoBoom I'm not lost, I've just misplaced myself. Supporter Bushclass I

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    No thanks. I've spent some time with pistol grip shotguns and I don't need that in my life. If I'm shooting anything larger than .45 acp I want a third point of contact.
     
  17. 1773

    1773 Guide

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    The 20 gauge version would be a lot more practical because it would be so much more controllable. I carried one of the old Ithaca Stakeout models (pistol grip/13" barrel) for special assignments at a former job and it was a nice little package that could be used much more efficiently than a 12 gauge variation could it could be completely concealed under a parka or field jacket. Though the shockwave would not be as compact as the little Ithaca due to a different style of rear grip it would be neat shotgun and would do anything the 12 gauge would with less pain to the shooter.
     
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  18. Ahnkochee

    Ahnkochee Bushmaster

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    From what I've heard the shape and angle of the bird's-head grip makes handling recoil much more manageable, much less painful than a conventional pistol grip shotgun. I'd sure like to try shooting one to see how it feels.
    This gun to me is the 21st century equivalent of the classic Howdah Pistol during the time of the British Raj

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2017
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  19. Ahnkochee

    Ahnkochee Bushmaster

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    I was trying to remember just where I had seen a similar shaped grip besides a Howdah pistol, then it came back to me. The Shockwave has a grip angle and shape very similar to old Japanese matchlock firearms!
    [​IMG]
     
  20. swissarmy67

    swissarmy67 Scout

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  21. drobs

    drobs Guide

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    I want one.
    I also want the adapter to allow you to use the Aguila mini-shot shells.
     
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  22. PeterCartwright

    PeterCartwright Guide

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    Has Remington come out with any competition to Mossberg on this front?
     
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  23. RavenLoon

    RavenLoon axology student Supporter

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    Might be a good choice for hiking in Alaska bear country.
     
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  24. oathkeeper762

    oathkeeper762 Bushbum & PT Wanderer Supporter Bushcraft Friend Bushclass I

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    I got my Shockwave in last week, I took Bud's up on the pre-order special a few weeks ago and I just got my mini-adapter in 30 mins ago...

    image.jpg

    I have shot it with standard 2 3/4" field loads and buckshot and it is very managable but I am very excited about the Aguila's. I will have it back out this weekend and I will update everyone on my first field test with the mini's.
     
  25. ROCK6

    ROCK6 Scout

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    This is kind of a slap to the face of the BATFE...which I kind of like! Practicality is on the low end of the scale and utility is really more niche than necessity, but I really like the idea. I've put one on pre-order and already picked up the mini-shell adapter like 0athkeeper762. I've had more than a few cotton-mouths than usual last year and with a mild winter, I could see a few more. With that mini-shell adapter and 9+1 rounds of snakeshot (err..birdshot), that would be handy (and fun) piece around the house. Whether you see any value in this or not, you have to appreciate the innovation of Mossberg and using the rule of law to point out how stupid the NFA really is. Kudos Mossberg; can't wait to get my hands on it! Looking forward to your review oathkeeper762...

    ROCK6
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2017
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  26. House of Horst

    House of Horst Have knife, will travel Supporter

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    Here's a good write up on the questioned practicality of this firearm.

    Click for article

    Personally I've had one for over three years. It just wasn't marketed by Mossberg. I built it using Shockwave's grip and ordered the parts from Mossberg. Me and guys like me were the test subjects for Mossberg to be confident in pushing this to production.
    IMG_2351.JPG

    I find it travels very well when strapped to a backpack (Book of Eli style) in a proper scabbard designed for breaching shotguns.
    IMG_2419.JPG

    And to talk about the comfortability of shooting it with that grip, I can and have shot it one handed. Recoil is straight back in to your arm and not snapping your wrist up like a traditional pistol grip does. Be aware that, unlike in the movies, as soon as you pull the trigger the recoil unlocks the bolt and the forearm and slide bars inertia-rack the shotgun half out of battery.
    IMG_4677.JPG

    Just my $0.02 on the matter.
     
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  27. House of Horst

    House of Horst Have knife, will travel Supporter

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    I anxiously await your report. I've considered doing this mod to mine. Unfortunately I'd have to order the mini shells as I can't seem to find them around me.
     
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  28. NCLivingBrit

    NCLivingBrit Guide

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    I say it again, the minute they make one in 20g I am going shopping. I even have a scabbard for it that matches my day pack.
     
  29. oathkeeper762

    oathkeeper762 Bushbum & PT Wanderer Supporter Bushcraft Friend Bushclass I

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    I've shot the Aguila mini's in my ksg and they have almost no recoil, I am expecting that they will be no problem in the 12 gauge Shockwave either. I will update you when I know for sure but even with the 2 3/4" buckshot it wasn't bad at all. My only complaint was there are four screws that hold the webbing on the fore end. Mine came very sharp. I plan on modifying or changing the attachment, I probably won't be shooting any 3" Mag rds though!
     
  30. NCLivingBrit

    NCLivingBrit Guide

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    I've tried the Aguila when they became available at my then job, I wasn't impressed. I had a ton of feeding issues.
     
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  31. LongAgoLEO

    LongAgoLEO Guide

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    Were you running them through a KSG? I've shot over 500 Aquila minis through a KSG without so much as a hiccup.
     
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  32. drobs

    drobs Guide

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    The short Aguila shells don't work in most pump shotguns but that is where the adapter mentioned above comes into play. It solves the feeding issues of the Aguila shells.
     
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  33. Bigghoss

    Bigghoss Scout

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    Well, you could do what they used to do. Buy a PGO and put a bird's head grip on it and shorten the barrel. Mossberg does make a PGO 20ga. The only thing that might be an issue is reinstalling the bead on the short barrel, most gunsmiths might be a little sketched out to do any of that work for you.
     
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  34. bluecow

    bluecow Scout

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    OH BOY MORE TACTACOOL SIDEWALK COMMANDO B.S. J.M.H.O.;)

    Why? so it can be recalled in six months.

    if you need a handgun get one. if you need a shotgun then use that. kind of like the judge or a mare's leg fun to play with but not worth much
     
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  35. DPris

    DPris Guide

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    I have a copy of the ATF letter to Mossberg stating ATF's position.

    They do not classify it as a shotgun.
    By their definition, a shotgun has (or had) a full stock & is intended to be fired from the shoulder.
    This gun was never a "shotgun" by their definition.

    They define it as a "firearm" under GCA 68, not NFA 34.
    They state in its as-manufactured form, with 26+ inch overall length, with THAT bird's-head grip, it is a GCA 68 firearm, NOT an AOW, NOT a taxable federally restricted firearm.

    Swapping the existing grip for a shorter AR-style pistolgrip that takes it under 26 inches would change its classification.
    Carrying it concealed MAY change its classification.

    Here in Utah, I have a sample sitting in lockup at my dealer, waiting for state confirmation on legality under state law, which prohibits shotguns with barrels under 18 inches unless an NFA item.

    So far, the agent at the appropriate state agency had not heard of the gun, has conferred with the local ATF branch over the ATF letter I forwarded to him, and the local ATF agent has concluded that ATF is considering the Shockwave a "handgun".

    The state agent, applying that reasoning, says in an email, that dealers should run a transfer & background check through listing it as a "handgun", and not a "shotgun".

    If run as a shotgun, it'll be denied.
    If run as a handgun, it "should" pass.

    That's a vague tacit indication that the gun's legal here, but flies in the face of a smoothbore handgun typically being an NFA item.
    I've asked for a letter detailing the state's determination in writing & have not yet been able to get it.
    I've also asked if this state agency will be disseminating their determination to dealers & LE statewide, to avoid multiple dealer hassles & some poor guy getting booked in jail by an un-informed law enforcement officer. No response on that yet.

    I don't understand the feds, but they've bought off on the gun.
    The other half of the coin will be a state by state determination of legality under state statutory wording.
    Better double check locally before you order or take possession, and try to get it in writing.
    Denis
     
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  36. NCLivingBrit

    NCLivingBrit Guide

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    They've allowed it until they don't, because they love to bait and switch.
     
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  37. House of Horst

    House of Horst Have knife, will travel Supporter

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    The problem with this is that whomever the agent is you have been in contact with there locally is not an employee of the Firearms Technology Division that issues the classifications and is giving incorrect information/opinions. The ATF's FATD has declared this as an OTHER FIREARM, NOT: pistol (smoothbore or otherwise), shotgun, or a NFA item. It is LOGGED in to dealer's bound books as an Other Firearm. The box checked on the 4473 to purchase it is "Other Firearm" (same as a receiver or PGO shotgun). I understand how it may cause some issues with State law, but Federally it is very clear what this firearm is.
     
  38. DPris

    DPris Guide

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    What I have is actually a four-page letter from the ATF in Martinsburg, WV, dated March 2, 2017, to Mossberg, detailing the ATF's determinations.

    Quoting verbatim from that letter regarding a sample submitted by Mossberg to them:

    "The Mossberg, Model 590, serial number V0348718 as described above, is a "firearm" subject to GCA provisions; however it is not [underlined] a "firearm" as defined by the NFA. Please note that if the subject firearm is concealed on a person, the classification with regard to the NFA may change."

    The above statement is based on never having had a shoulder stock attached, fitted with that bird's-head grip, being a pump action, being a 12-gauge 14-inch smoothbore barrel, with an overall length exceeding 16 inches.

    The letter also includes the NFA definition of an AOW.
    That definition reads in part:
    "a pistol or revolver having a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell".
    Under that definition, the Mossberg SHOULD be an AOW, IF it's considered a handgun (pistol).

    Signed by Michael R. Curtis, Chief, Firearms Technology Industry Services Branch.

    In that letter, there is no mention of the Shockwave being classified as a handgun, specifically.
    I don't know how or why the local ATF branch here concluded that ATF is considering it a handgun.
    The state agent is trying to find a basis for inserting this gun into existing state law that specifically prohibits it with that barrel length under our "Sawed-Off/Short-Barreled Shotgun" statute.

    Typically, under federal regs, a smoothbore handgun would be an NFA item, but the ATF letter states this Shockwave is not an NFA item.
    Typically, under state statute here, unlawful possession of a short-barreled shotgun would be a second degree felony.
    Typically, any shotgun configuration qualifying for an AOW classification would be considered unlawful WITHOUT the proper federal paperwork.
    The state agent appears to be going off the ATF agent's interpretation of the letter as the gun being a handgun, which would take it out of that short-barreled shotgun category under state law.

    Which again runs us into a muddy & conflicting area in my state.

    If it's a short-barreled shotgun by state definition, it's illegal (unless an NFA item).
    If it's a handgun (pistol), seems it should be an NFA item.
    If it's not an NFA item as determined by the ATF, and ATF doesn't clearly say what it is beyond a GCA "firearm", then what is it?

    The state agent is saying it's a handgun & to run it through as one. Not an "Other".
    There's ample room for confusion, which is why a directive interpretation relative to state law needs to come from this agency on paper, and widely disseminated.
    Denis
     
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  39. House of Horst

    House of Horst Have knife, will travel Supporter

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    Denis, there is a difference between an "other firearm" as defined by the GCA, and an "ANY other firearm" as defined by the NFA. This is defined as an "other firearm" by the GCA.
     
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  40. DPris

    DPris Guide

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    Not contesting that, I'm saying what the state agent said to use- handgun. :)
    It needs to be clarified in writing which way the state officially wants it to go.
    Denis
     
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  41. House of Horst

    House of Horst Have knife, will travel Supporter

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    Oh, yeah, gotcha. He's wrong. Telling FFL dealers to sell the firearm as anything other than an "other firearm" is incorrect. While the STATE can classify it as something else locally, Federally it's still an "other firearm". It just may wind up as not being legal in Utah depending on how it's classified there.
     
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  42. PeterCartwright

    PeterCartwright Guide

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    Neither the first nor last time statutory language between fed and state conflicts. I appreciate DPris's caution before he takes possession...and his friendly cautions to the rest of us. I'll be following this.

    PC
     
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  43. YacoltWose

    YacoltWose Scout

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    I kinda saw this conflict coming. I worked for an outfit that made use of 14" pgo shotguns. When I first saw them, I thought they were a joke, but with proper technique, they can be useful.

    When I saw the Shockwave, I was briefly tempted, but I think there is a nontrivial possibility of getting jammed up with state laws here.
     
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  44. dub

    dub BCUSA Friend Bushcraft Friend

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    My thought as well. I can see this going the way of the Sig brace.
     
  45. Angelgutter

    Angelgutter Supporter Supporter

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    Had mine for about a year...ordered a 14" front end kit and grip for about 225$. Bought the pgo shotgun for $80 from a fella hard up.
    Makes for a hell of a snake gun after I had a couple cotton mouths shake off an entire cylinder of 410 from a judg and smile. Those things are tough! I've got a mini kit adapter but never installed it on this one, 2 3/4 has not been a problem, soon to be replace by this if I can ever get her out of jail...
    IMG_2474.JPG
     
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  46. Ahnkochee

    Ahnkochee Bushmaster

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    I don't think this firearm will ever be approved for sale in my home state which is probably the only state in the union that is 100% Dems in both the State house and senate, and who looks to the Cali gubmint as a role model.
    If I lived in Alaska and fished the river banks for salmon I'd seriously consider this one. No real reason to own one here in Hawai'i since my lucky rabbit's foot keeps them thar bahrs away. ;)
     
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  47. DPris

    DPris Guide

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    It's not the rabbit's foot that keeps the bears away, it's the fact that bears can't get passports to get into your country. :)
    Denis
     
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  48. DPris

    DPris Guide

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    And, FYI update:
    The state is now saying it will not provide any legal opinion regarding this shotgun.
    Leaving it totally in a grey area that would be decided by a court test case if somebody buys one & encounters LE who books him in jail under state statutes that appear to prohibit possession of a 14-inch shotgun without a tax stamp, which ATF won't go for.

    A message is supposed to be going out to dealers in the state that is totally worthless as far as clarification & guidance goes in labeling the Mossberg for 4473 & NICS purposes.
    Does not even mention the model specifically, or the 14-inch barrel at all.

    Battle's not over.
    Denis
     
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  49. Beal

    Beal Scout

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    I dont know, but I want one... dearly.
     
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  50. Chuck-Cook

    Chuck-Cook Hobbyist Hobbyist Bushclass I

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    Picked it up today
     

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