9mm spanks .38 Special and rivals .357 magnum!

Discussion in 'Firearms' started by scottman, Aug 12, 2018 at 7:59 PM.

  1. scottman

    scottman Guide

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2011
    Messages:
    3,920
    Likes Received:
    4,208
  2. mtngunr

    mtngunr Tracker

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2018
    Messages:
    188
    Likes Received:
    556
    Try shooting 158gr bullets out of the 9mm, Spanky. Try equalling the accuracy out of equal length barrels while warming up that paddle.
     
    Birdman, scottman, wrath0r and 5 others like this.
  3. Wasp

    Wasp We are GO for Sting! Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2014
    Messages:
    9,004
    Likes Received:
    37,272
    Location:
    Arkansas
    Okay,
    [​IMG]
     
    Guttersnipe, scottman and possumjon like this.
  4. GreyOne

    GreyOne Elder Lifetime Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    4
    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2008
    Messages:
    41,275
    Likes Received:
    11,603
    Location:
    Texas
    This sort of argument is why I no longer even read the gun mags.
    Given the Ruger and other 9mm revolvers it is possible to compare both cartridges from the same platform. When you are done explain what measure you use to judge superiority. Velocity, energy, momentum? Real world performance is pretty similar. Use what you want and be smugly - but silently- superior to those you consider less knowledgeable . They won't mind.
     
    LongAgoLEO, Mikem, garry3 and 21 others like this.
  5. Wasp

    Wasp We are GO for Sting! Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2014
    Messages:
    9,004
    Likes Received:
    37,272
    Location:
    Arkansas
    I didn't even watch the video, but I'm sure the title was telling enough, or at least presumes to.
    Every caliber, all of them have pluses and minuses regarding a particular goal, that includes target and sport, hunting, and even self defense. There truly is yin and yang when it comes to shooting, and there is no golden bullet.
     
  6. Mikewood

    Mikewood Supporter Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2013
    Messages:
    2,372
    Likes Received:
    4,219
    Amen Brother. Amen.
     
    Guttersnipe, scottman and GreyOne like this.
  7. Stophel

    Stophel Scout

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2015
    Messages:
    574
    Likes Received:
    1,566
    Now, take that subsonic 158 grain 9mm bullet and push it to about 900 - 1000- 1100fps....
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2018 at 2:19 AM
    scottman likes this.
  8. Wasp

    Wasp We are GO for Sting! Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2014
    Messages:
    9,004
    Likes Received:
    37,272
    Location:
    Arkansas
    Their box rating is 940 which is pretty close. Especially if you take a pistol of comparative size in .357 and velocity loss in a short barrel.
    I like .357 quite a bit, in fact its probably my favorite revolver caliber behind. 22 lr. But I can't fire a whole cylinder and keep it on target as fast as I can shoot the same amount of rounds fram a 9mm. If I'm depending soley on taking one shot and delivering maximum energy, then I'm going way bigger than a .357 mag. When I consider size, capacity and energy, in most cases I'd prefer my 9mm.

    All three are acceptable calibers, and like I said above there is yin and yang in every caliber and platform, and there is no golden bullet.

    My response with that particular ammo was related to the slight snark of the poster I quoted, not the ammo I would choose simply because of weight.
     
    Guttersnipe, scottman, WILL and 2 others like this.
  9. Seacapt.

    Seacapt. Supporter Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2014
    Messages:
    6,692
    Likes Received:
    16,189
    Location:
    Maine
    Who here prefers getting shot by one or the other?
     
  10. werewolf won

    werewolf won TANSTAAFL Supporter Bushcraft Friend

    Blog Posts:
    17
    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2010
    Messages:
    14,103
    Likes Received:
    20,965
    Without even looking at wildcats how many different factory loads of all calibers are there? How many of those overlap, often in more than one category too? How many are so close that the difference makes no difference at all? Why do they even keep making new ones? That one I can answer… MONEY!!! Got to keep separating the gun owner from his money with some new (and maybe) improved caliber and thus a new rifle sale.

    It’s amazing that there are so few shotgun gauges compared to rifle and pistol calibers—something to think about. I believe that is why, from time to time, the manufactures have elongated chambers. Time to sell more shotguns not just ammo, so that 2-3/4” shell your Granddad found just right now needs to be 3”, like that makes a world of difference to anything but the bottom line.

    I remember reading an article in the 1980’s the title; “Best Caliber for White Tail Deer? Make mine a .375 H&H.” A round that is frequently is used to kill African lions for a 200 pound deer? An argument can be made of anything I guess, and if you defend with circular logic that argument might get published :D
     
  11. HoustonB77

    HoustonB77 Tracker

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2017
    Messages:
    52
    Likes Received:
    164
    Most pistol calibers suck period but I have never seen anybody volunteer to stand in front of one of my 38 Special reloads. I'm pushing the 135 grain gold dot at 950 in my 642. It's a hand full but with practice you can get 5 on target in an hury!
    (Shot placement is key.)
     
    Cwlongshot, Wasp and scottman like this.
  12. Mikewood

    Mikewood Supporter Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2013
    Messages:
    2,372
    Likes Received:
    4,219
    38 and 357 mag loaded with powder that is optimized for a 4-8” Barrel perform poorly out of a 1” barrel.

    9mm loaded with powder optimized for a 4” barrel works well when shot from a 4” barrel.

    Ok... what else you got? How about dragging out a 3-4” S&W 686 and getting even numbers instead of playing shell games?
     
  13. scottman

    scottman Guide

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2011
    Messages:
    3,920
    Likes Received:
    4,208
    Don't have any snubbies myself YET to do some chrono tests, would like to in the future along with a 327 federal
     
    Cwlongshot likes this.
  14. WILL

    WILL Guide

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2010
    Messages:
    1,124
    Likes Received:
    4,758
    Location:
    Florida
    Good information for back-packers like me. I never would have guessed that significant of a performance difference. Since they make snake shot in 9mm, a snubby airweight would be perfect.

    As it stands I didn't have the budget for a pistol just for back-packing. I just carry my CCW, which is the lightest, smallest 9mm I could bring myself to trust my life to. Sig P938. I back-pack with snake shot in the chamber and a magazine full of RNFP for bigger critters. So far, hands down the biggest threat I've faced on the trail has been rattlers. The plan is to fire the snake shot as a bear warning if necessary, or rack it out and go to work. Not ideal, but.......budget.

    It is comforting to learn that my 9mm stacks up so well. Thanks @Scottman
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2018 at 10:59 AM
    masiaka, Guttersnipe, alukban and 2 others like this.
  15. scottman

    scottman Guide

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2011
    Messages:
    3,920
    Likes Received:
    4,208
    I've heard the 9mm sometimes has crimp issues with the ligher weight revolvers... no experience personally yet. A friend at the club has some of the LCR 's in 38357 and plenty of guys have 38 snubbies, and some have 357's... not that many 9mm snubby owners at the club to my knowledge.

    taurus is going to make that two clyinder 9mm 38/357 in a 3.5 and 6.5 inch barrel. Not sure with the weight if there will be any crimp issues.
    i kind of want to buy the6.5 for testing and deer hunting as I think that will make more sense for me as I probably would never conceal carry the 3.5 inch one on body anyway.
     
    Guttersnipe and WILL like this.
  16. HoustonB77

    HoustonB77 Tracker

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2017
    Messages:
    52
    Likes Received:
    164
    Just get good with the 938 and you wont need snake shot! I just shoot rattlers with HST Plus P
     
    Cwlongshot and WILL like this.
  17. freebirdfb

    freebirdfb Bushmaster

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2012
    Messages:
    5,089
    Likes Received:
    10,090
    Location:
    KC Metro
    I didn't watch the video eithet (I have better things to waste my data on.) I'll file this into the same category as the 9mm vs .380 debate and move on. Use what you are comfortable with using.
     
  18. Tye

    Tye Scout

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    May 31, 2017
    Messages:
    364
    Likes Received:
    871
    Location:
    Virginia
    Subsonic is generally between 900-1050 in ammo already
     
    Guttersnipe likes this.
  19. OutnBacker

    OutnBacker Guide

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2013
    Messages:
    1,423
    Likes Received:
    2,769
    Location:
    Washington State
    Exactly.
     
    Guttersnipe likes this.
  20. arleigh

    arleigh Guide

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2015
    Messages:
    2,682
    Likes Received:
    6,406
    Location:
    southern california
    I still like my Ruger security 6 .I load it progressively when in the desert , and all .357 mag. rounds for home defense .
    No doubt that as a CCW personal defense weapon in public 9mm is more practical ,the magazine and reloading is more practical .
    I can agree the air weight is a painful weapon to shoot and one you DO NOT WANT TO PRACTICE WITH .
    Most of us know that in the heat of an event the first round means the most, If you have any reservation in your training due to the pain this will taint your will to shoot accurately.
    However it seems to me that if most of your practice is done with the heavier weapon and what you carry is lighter, the surprise in the first round might be the edge that makes the difference ,
    or not.
    Generally it is a bad practice not to practice with a different weapon than you carry .
    If the gun is for public defense situations I would strongly recommend the semiauto 9mm .
    In the woods the 357 mag with a 6" barrel is better .short barrels are not woods guns .IMO
     
    Cwlongshot and Guttersnipe like this.
  21. azmike9

    azmike9 Supporter Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2011
    Messages:
    306
    Likes Received:
    242
    Location:
    Red Rock Country, Arizona
    I like my Ruger Match Champion 357 with a 4.2" barrel as a woods gun. Carries well and with proper loads, it will do anything that I need. From snake shot to 180 gr Bear loads. IMHO/YMMV.
     
    Lee C. likes this.
  22. swissarmy67

    swissarmy67 Scout

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2011
    Messages:
    575
    Likes Received:
    646
    Location:
    MN. USA
  23. bosque bob

    bosque bob Scout

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2017
    Messages:
    601
    Likes Received:
    1,952
    Always lots of go round with these debates - preferences differ. Not being an expert by any means I tend to look at various printed tables and Brass Fetcher videos and specs to gather information. Real world use is naturally different for a number of reasons but based on the approach mentioned a 9mm and a 38 special look like both might hurt. Beyond that I'll stick with a 44 special.
     
    Poppy Jay Jay likes this.
  24. swissarmy67

    swissarmy67 Scout

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2011
    Messages:
    575
    Likes Received:
    646
    Location:
    MN. USA
    If you compare std 9mm to 38spec +P loads of the same bullet weights they are almost ballistic twins.

    So if you want a 15 shot 38special+P buy a 9mm auto. ;)
     
    Birdman and Tye like this.
  25. charlesmc2

    charlesmc2 Scout

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2017
    Messages:
    552
    Likes Received:
    1,502
    Location:
    Central Texas
    Amazing the fads and trends. A few years back it seemed like 9 mm was thought of as inadequate. But .357 magnum was the stopper.

    For most of us, it is shot placement that is key. True both for self defense and for hunting.
     
    Lee C. likes this.
  26. tiny80022

    tiny80022 Hobbyist Hobbyist Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2009
    Messages:
    2,269
    Likes Received:
    2,536
    Location:
    colorado
    I prefer 9mm. Recoil is easy to manage and with jacketed hollow point +p ammo there’s plenty of stopping power.
     
  27. 45jack

    45jack Supporter Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2009
    Messages:
    5,199
    Likes Received:
    3,577
    From the mid-1880s until WWII the .32-40 was a very popular deer round. It's not powerful enough to kill modern deer.
    Kinetic energy can never replace hunting skill and marksmanship.
     
    Lee C., Birdman and werewolf won like this.
  28. Lee C.

    Lee C. Scout

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2017
    Messages:
    294
    Likes Received:
    647
    For me, a 4" 686 ssr gets it done.. light loads,snake shot,heavy loads... Fits me like a glove. Plus,I can carry my lil carbine with same ammo..( I haven't tried wadcutters or snakeshot in carbine yet..well see how that works)
     
    45jack likes this.
  29. 45jack

    45jack Supporter Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2009
    Messages:
    5,199
    Likes Received:
    3,577
    Let me know how the snake shot works. Might need to be single loaded?
     
  30. Birdman

    Birdman Guide

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2014
    Messages:
    1,901
    Likes Received:
    5,293
    Location:
    NW Oregon
    For short barrels and/or light bullets. Sure.
    That's not where the .357 shines.
    158gr .357 loads out of my Bond derringer have about the same velocity as his 125gr 9mm.
     
  31. Bronco68

    Bronco68 Tracker

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2017
    Messages:
    186
    Likes Received:
    377
    Location:
    California OU812
    I think it’s important not to confuse energy and velocity numbers for wounding capacity. If you look at the performance of most modern personal defense rounds, you’ll see the vast majority are all engineered stop within the same distance when fired into ballistic ordinance gelatin. So pick the round you shoot best for CCW in the most reliable gun you can afford and be happy. :)
     
    Lee C. and WILL like this.
  32. Seacapt.

    Seacapt. Supporter Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2014
    Messages:
    6,692
    Likes Received:
    16,189
    Location:
    Maine
    Question: Did the American, Allied and German military forces during WW11 ever consider the 9mm Luger inadequate for offensive or defensive purposes?
     
  33. WILL

    WILL Guide

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2010
    Messages:
    1,124
    Likes Received:
    4,758
    Location:
    Florida
    Most carry a handgun into the woods for protection from snakes, k-9, big cats, people & bears. While the first 3 are manageable with almost any centerfire handgun, the later two give pause. I thought this was an on point article from an experienced voice.

    https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=108


    .38 special +p outdoorsman recommended for snub nosed .357 & .38 revolvers.
    https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=291
    ➤ 1112 fps -- Ruger SP 101, 3-inch barrel, 38 SPL
    1043 fps -- S&W Mod 66, 2.5-inch barrel, 357 mag.
    989 fps -- S&W Mod 340PD, 1 & 7/8-inch barrel, 357 mag.
    1027 fps -- S&W Mod 642 (pre dash), 1 & 7/8-inch barrel, 38 SPL

    9mm +p-
    https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=388
    ➤ 1021 fps ------ Ruger LC9 - with 3-inch barrel
    1024 fps ------ SIG P938 - with 2.9-inch barrel

    Buffalo Bore doesn't advertise their velocity in anything below a 3" barrel for the .357 load and pushes those users to the .38+p above.

    https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=396

    Anyhow, from his article...
    ➤ To stop black bears, all you have to do is hurt them; you do not need to kill them. Almost any center fire handgun cartridge will dissuade a black bear if you hit them well with it.

    So I'm seriously considering going back to my .380 for backpacking because it's significantly lighter. I don't operate in grizzly bear country and have personally witnessed .380 dismantle an adult human & been shot in the leg with it myself, so I'd feel well armed with this ammo for back-packing...

    https://www.lehighdefense.com/products/380-auto-90gr-xtreme-penetrator-ammunition?variant=1066236304

    Velocity (fps): 950
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2018 at 9:27 AM
  34. castle22

    castle22 Scout

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2012
    Messages:
    224
    Likes Received:
    222
    Until I can buy another practice ammo in an effective defense caliber for 17-18 cents/round (price of 9mm by the case) to me it’s a moot point anyway. Cheaper ammo = more practice = more chance of putting bullets where I want them. 9mm is so cheap it’s not even worth my time or money to invest it a reloading setup. They could bring 10mm explosive tip caseless to market in a handgun and unless it’s less than $0.20/round I’m not buying it.
     
    45jack likes this.
  35. werewolf won

    werewolf won TANSTAAFL Supporter Bushcraft Friend

    Blog Posts:
    17
    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2010
    Messages:
    14,103
    Likes Received:
    20,965
    Bigger isn't better?? Don't tell that to Weatherby :D
     
    Birdman and 45jack like this.
  36. Birdman

    Birdman Guide

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2014
    Messages:
    1,901
    Likes Received:
    5,293
    Location:
    NW Oregon
    I damn near bought a NAA Guardian in .380 a few years back for that role.
    The only reason I decided not to, was the fact I can med/big game hunt year round, so I may as well have a weapon capable when I'm out.
    I'm an opportunistic hunter when I'm backpacking.
     
    WILL likes this.
  37. MontanaMarine

    MontanaMarine Scout

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2017
    Messages:
    280
    Likes Received:
    1,141
    Location:
    Canyon Ferry, MT
    It's not hard to make a case for the 9mm in the 1 7/8" snubby. Very efficient pressure/powder/barrel combo.

    Both 9mm and 357 Mag operate at 35K psi, but the 9mm 124gr load has a powder charge of around 7.0 gr of a faster powder, where as the 357 with a 125gr will have around 18-19 gr of a slower burning powder.

    Another thing about the short 9mm case, it gets better ejection from the short ejector rod on the snub.

    And with the 357 length cylinder, the 9mm pressure has already peaked before it hits the barrel cylinder gap.
     
    Birdman likes this.
  38. MontanaMarine

    MontanaMarine Scout

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2017
    Messages:
    280
    Likes Received:
    1,141
    Location:
    Canyon Ferry, MT
    On the other hand, you can't do this with a 9mm snubby.

    This guy is shooting the Buffalo Bore 357 Magnum 180 gr heavy load out of the LCR 357...…...1250 fps!!

     
    Lee C. and Birdman like this.
  39. Lee C.

    Lee C. Scout

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2017
    Messages:
    294
    Likes Received:
    647
    I will let you know...that's my thought as well... we'll see though...I may get lucky!... Now I'm thinking about it... maybe if I take an empty cartridge case and try it...hmm...now I'm really wondering
     
    45jack likes this.
  40. 45jack

    45jack Supporter Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2009
    Messages:
    5,199
    Likes Received:
    3,577
    Remember Fr. Frog's Rules of External Ballistics:

    1) There ain't no magic bullets! (Although some are better than others for a particular purpose.)
    2) Divide the range at which someone claims to have shot their deer by 4 to get the real range.
    3) Always get as close as possible.
    4) Don't believe manufacturer's claims.
    5) Velocity erodes, mass doesn't
    6) In the battle between velocity and accuracy, accuracy always wins.
    7) Inconsequential increments are meaningless.
    8) Most gun writers are pathological liars.

    http://www.frfrogspad.com/extbal.htm
     
    stillman likes this.
  41. A K Church

    A K Church Guide

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2010
    Messages:
    2,117
    Likes Received:
    1,259
    Every gun mag of the 70s and 80s:

    .45 beats 9mm
    .308 beats .223
    Revolvers are obsolete

    Et goldurn cetera. Pardon me while I watch cute cat vids on YouTube.
     
    45jack likes this.

Share This Page