Are people scared of bushcrafters/woodsmen?

Discussion in 'General Bushcraft Discussion' started by Bitterroot Native, Jul 9, 2019.

  1. leghog

    leghog Guide

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    I have no idea one way or the other. I've never gotten such an indication. I can't read others' minds. Can you?
     
  2. leghog

    leghog Guide

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  3. wallflash

    wallflash Supporter Supporter

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    Nope . But you seemed to be trying to rebut my point that a cop would notice and look you over if he saw you OC.

    So we are back to a person OC hits a cops radar and gets looked at in terms of potential threat .
     
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  4. Black5

    Black5 Supporter Supporter

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    Good Lord people.

    Quit telling other people what they do or don't need.
    When did we as a nation start believing it was a right or duty to tell someone else how to live as long as they weren't violating rights or laws?
    Grow up.
     
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  5. wallflash

    wallflash Supporter Supporter

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    Sure it’s legal, again, never has been claimed otherwise . The OP is about the perception of bushcrafters . It is legal for me to carry an Aar15 around with me . I don’t believe for a second that if anyone on this forum was in a movie theater and I walked in with one and say with it in my lap that they wouldn’t notice and wonder about me , and probably be on alert until away from me . So I guess it’s a sliding scale . Some people go on alert over an OC handgun. Others don’t until they see an AR15 .
     
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  6. wallflash

    wallflash Supporter Supporter

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    Well we are at flame war level , so I guess I’ll sign off
     
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  7. Wasp

    Wasp DOWN IN DIXIE Supporter

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    They can move away or out. Free Country. Well used to be anyway.
     
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  8. Black5

    Black5 Supporter Supporter

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    Flame war?

    That was simply a statement.

    ETA: A split second of afterthought, we have derailed this thread so many times, it may be good if several of us signed off.
     
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  9. leghog

    leghog Guide

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    Name a theater chain that will even allow you in OCing any rifle (or even handgun). Property owners have the right to deny your entry and will.

    We've now entered into a realm beyond the absurd so I too am out.
     
  10. wallflash

    wallflash Supporter Supporter

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    It was a thought experiment, not a statement of reality . It requires a willingness to think outside your bias and looking at the subject from a differing POV.
     
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  11. leghog

    leghog Guide

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    That's rich!
     
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  12. GreyOne

    GreyOne Elder Lifetime Supporter

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    Well, I find this statement a bit of an overreach. I spent a few decades as a cop. Seeing someone open carrying was merely another observation or datum point. Behavior was far more important- were they acting drunk, high, angry or erratic- that was more important. I was taught to consider anyone as possibly carrying, whether legally or not, open or concealed, the open carrier is just easier to spot, not more dangerous. Of course this is Texas, so guns and knives have not been demonized as in many states. Here, unless you carry in a school, church, or some government buildings, it is probably legal. My experience is that legal carriers are much less likely to cause trouble than are the unarmed people. Maybe it is different elsewhere, but the statement above certainly seems to be an assumption rather than a fact.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2019
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  13. wallflash

    wallflash Supporter Supporter

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    My statement was simply that a guy with a gun triggers a cops radar, just as it puts an ordinary citizen on alert . The point being that people who go on alert when seeing someone OC are not necessarily the snowflakes many here like to deride them as , they are reacting very similar to how a cop would react . Not necessarily identical, but similar in awareness and caution upon seeing someone OC . And this is not an assumption, it is gathered from conversations with a fairly large number of cops I have been friends with over decades , served with in a VFD, went to church with , lived beside , and a lot of other areas of friendship . In TX, BTW. Videos of cops shooting people simply because they fear guys with guns bear this out . The concept that a guy with an obvious gun is just another ordinary Joe to a cop is simply not borne out by the daily news events .
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2019
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  14. barkoguru

    barkoguru Scout

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    I’d be interested in seeing the circumstances that surround these shootings, please post some links.
     
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  15. wallflash

    wallflash Supporter Supporter

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    I’ll give some names, feel free to google them

    Daniel Shaver - shot and killed while unarmed because the cop thought he was reaching for a gun


    Hannah Williams- a 17 yr old girl shot in a traffic stop because a cop supposedly saw a BB gun in her car

    Dravon Ames - luckily not shot, along with his wife and kid, but guns pulled because a cop thought he might be reaching for a gun when he moved his hand while in his car


    Joel Johnson- a panhandler in Philly who’s trick is to hold a hand out and rub his fingers together to beg for money. A cop thought he was holding an invisible gun and shot him


    Ryan Twyman - shot while sitting in a car unarmed by deputies who thought he had a gun. No crime under investigation, they just thought they saw a gun so they shot him.

    That’s 5 with about 5 minutes of research, all current items as far as I could tell .

    In TX alone over the last 6 yrs police have shot at 109 unarmed people, killing almost 40 of them, injuring more than that , missing a few , all because they thought a guy might have a gun, or moved wrong. None actually had guns.


    Cops notice guns . Cops often notice imaginary guns . Cops don’t ignore guns .
     
  16. leghog

    leghog Guide

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    I've never modified the free exercise of my rights or chosen not to freely exercise my rights because I might run into a snowflake or a bad cop, and at this later stage of my life I don't plan to start doing so. My choice. If you want to do so, your choice. Without choice there is no freedom.

    People just need to stop worrying about others choices regarding how they go about their daily lives when it has no effect on them. Worry about yourself and not them. We should all quit trying to control others or conform them to what we want and/or choose.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2019
  17. Poppy Jay Jay

    Poppy Jay Jay Scout

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    Why the obsession with this. Bushcraft takes place in the woods.

    Perhaps you should take your own advise since it'pretty clear you're biased against OC.

    Some might say that's your intent all along....I mean this forum has a knife and a firearm section so alot of folks here use them everyday. Many like myself grew up using them. I think the OP's intent was peoples perception of bushcrafters out in the bush.

    This is a recuring theme. It seems everyone you know is biased against OC so it would follow that you are as well...and that's OK. You are entitled to your view....but I can't help but think that your intent here is to merely "raise the hackles" of those who do OC.
     
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  18. x39

    x39 Hyperborean Supporter

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    Yes, this sums it up perfectly.
     
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  19. GreyOne

    GreyOne Elder Lifetime Supporter

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    Cops go " on alert" as you call it when they leave the house in uniform.
    You have talked to many cops you say. I have been one, and worked with many, day in and day out for decades. We have different conclusions, based on our different experiences.
    Yes some officers may act from fear, but that is not the norm. Some drivers panic if they see a patrol unit behind them, but most drivers do not. Situations make a difference.
    You seem to be both criticizing law enforcement and deriding open carry in your posts, which is your right, but I think you are trying to justify your opinions by cherry picking your evidence. So be it.
    Have a good day sir.
     
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  20. wallflash

    wallflash Supporter Supporter

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    No, not raise hackles purposely, but I will admit the turns these discussions usually take do irritate me and cause me to say more than I should perhaps . These things almost always veer into deriding people uncomfortable around guns as wimpy little unmanly snowflakes , along with the “ screw them if they don’t like me doing what is legal. I don’t care about their fears”. While I carry when I can ( I don’t currently have my LTC , that’s coming this fall when I have more time from some current endeavors) , I do understand many in a society in which nutters go around shooting people randomly for the hell of it being concerned when they see a guy OC . What is ironic is that those who carry do so because they worry about potential threats to them and their families and so they choose to be prepared at all times , but they refuse to consider that others see THEM as a threat when they OC and take that into consideration in their preparations . And so the “screw them” attitude gets expressed . I was brought up both at home and in Boy Scouts to take others into consideration in life if it doesn’t cost me too much effort. A pocket holster or a loose shirt over the gun goes a long way towards removing the discomfort of others about a guy with a gun, and it doesn’t cost me any real effort . I wear cargo shorts and drop it without a holster into one of the big pockets while camping . I just see the “ screw the stupid little snowflakes “ as unnecessary, and it tends to rub me the wrong way .

    So, enough said on my part as to why I feel the way I do and I will leave it at this unless directly responded to .
     
  21. wallflash

    wallflash Supporter Supporter

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    No I’m not criticizing LE overall. I just responded to your post with a statement that the news doesn’t bear out your claim, and then was challenged to provide instances to support it .

    I stand by my statement that OC by citizen hits a cops radar . It would be the poor cop that it didn’t , especially in today’s society of random shootings . And I made the statement simply to show that people becoming more cautious around a guy OC are not really any different than a cop noticing him.
     
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  22. barkoguru

    barkoguru Scout

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    Well less see, pulling a replica gun on an LEO, walking towards a LEO at night with your hands in the shape of a pistol when he’s telling you to stop, throwing the car in reverse and nearly running over a LEO while there telling you to get out of the car, seems like perfect examples of how to get yourself shot and piss poor examples of how to comply when approached by law enforcement IMHO.
     
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  23. Poppy Jay Jay

    Poppy Jay Jay Scout

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    Fair enough. I think I get where you're comming from now. This subject tends to divide folks and put folks on the defensive so heated exchanges take place. I think this is good group of folks here so we should just hike our own hike.....and can we please get back to the regularly schceduled bushcraft progamming!:51:
     
  24. gohammergo

    gohammergo I like sharp things.... Supporter Bushcraft Friend

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    Getting back to our regular programming.

    I think that those of you who like that "scandi" grind tend to scare the general public, while those who know better and rock the convex grind tend to have more of a calming relaxed effect on the crowds.


    :eek::eek::eek:









    :18::18::18:
     
  25. Haggis

    Haggis Bushmaster

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    It’s the flannel/plaid shirts,,, 50 odd years of Neil Young, then Kurt Cobain and the grunge look,,, now it’s bushcrafters in flannel shirts, armed with Mora knives, hiding in the bushes, and knawwing burnt bannocks? It’s all too much to take in...
     
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  26. MrFixIt

    MrFixIt Old Jarhead LB#42 Supporter Bushcraft Friend Bushclass I

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    This thread certainly took a left at Albuquerque...
     
  27. leghog

    leghog Guide

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    Not an unhealthy attitude to have. Wish more had that attitude whether regarding fun afield or going about daily life in town.

    Live and let live, otherwise screw 'em.
     
  28. wallflash

    wallflash Supporter Supporter

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    I’m not sure when being considerate of your fellow man went out of style to be replaced with “screw them” , but I prefer the old fashioned way . It usually costs me very little effort to take others concerns into account and not run my chain saw at 7 AM on a Sunday, or fire up the table saw at 7, or get up at 6 while camping and bang around chopping up wood for a fire while other campers are still sleeping, , not slamming my truck doors at midnight and waking other campers up , or hiding my gun from view to not upset others in an age when you risk being shot by simply walking through a mall .
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2019
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  29. leghog

    leghog Guide

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    No one here, including me, has even suggested being inconsiderate of others so don't even try to put that on anyone, including me.

    What I have said is I peaceable go about my daily business without harassing others and expect to be treated likewise. Otherwise, screw them, and screw them if they can't accept the manner in which I peaceably go about my business. Again, live and let live. I'm not rude to others, but I'm also not changing my ways because of others' potential irrational fears.

    I've even been reported as being "unfailingly polite" by the author, Kirk Volkurt, of A Cambodian Odyssey: And the Death of 25 Journalists

    https://books.google.com/books/about/A_Cambodian_Odyssey.html?id=fdwb24vj3sMC

    I'm Bill Hudson in the book.
     
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  30. wallflash

    wallflash Supporter Supporter

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    You’ve said screw those who might be upset by you OC a number of times , and made it clear the effort to not display your gun openly is not worth your time to take others concerns into account . I’m only repeating what you have said .You’ve made your views plain that others worries about a guy with a gun around their family in a time of random shootings is of no concern to you
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2019
  31. buckfynn

    buckfynn Old Geezer Lifetime Supporter Bushcraft Friend Bushclass I

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    Indeed it has...


    @Bitterroot Native good idea for a discussion, it is a shame it has been derailed by the few promoting their anti gun/knife paranoia.
     
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  32. leghog

    leghog Guide

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    And I said I'll not change my ways because of others' potential irrational fears. Don't cherry pick.
    Also, I never mentioned anyone's family. So, again, I'll ask you not to put words in my mouth.
     
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  33. wallflash

    wallflash Supporter Supporter

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    I never said you made mention of someone’s family, so no one put words in your mouth . I said that people have concerns about their families safety, and you have said you couldn’t care less about their fears, but in fact, screw them .

    Unfortunately in today’s society the fear of being randomly shot is not an irrational fear . Again, it is highly ironic for folks who feel the need to carry to protect themselves from a statistically unlikely attack to claim others fears about people with guns in today’s world being irrational . Pot, meet kettle.

    All I’m saying is that it requires little effort to prevent those concerns IF one is willing to have more than a screw them attitude about others who don’t think the same as them . I walk around people all the time with a Glock in my pocket . They never know , and I feel no need to be “ in their face” with the fact I am carrying .
     
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  34. leghog

    leghog Guide

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  35. MASC1104

    MASC1104 Old Dominion Resident Supporter

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    Agreed. I also thinks it works both ways.
     
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  36. wallflash

    wallflash Supporter Supporter

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    “.You’ve made your views plain that others worries about a guy with a gun around their family in a time of random shootings is of no concern to you”



    Again, my meaning there was that if a guy saw you OC and had concerns about the safety of his family , your opinion of his concerns is “screw him”. I didn’t mean that you actually said “ I don’t care about anyone’s family” ,and I think it a reach to try and make my words appear that way , I meant that you have indicated a lack of care for anyone’s concerns for themselves or their families in general with regards to your desire to OC .
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2019
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  37. Black5

    Black5 Supporter Supporter

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    You know, there are gun forums that thrive on these type arguments.

    The OP did not mention firearms.
     
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  38. Gumbi

    Gumbi Guide Bushclass I

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    This is the best post in the last 3 or 4 pages of this thread!

    Some people are just curious about others who dress and act very differently from them and others are worried and fearful about people who dress and act different. And then others are indifferent.
     
  39. squishware

    squishware Troubleshooter Supporter

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    Perhaps seeing someone Open Carry might encourage somebody else to be prepared or at least get them thinking about what their view is and how they arrived at it. I mean this for OCing firearms and knives.
     
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  40. GreyOne

    GreyOne Elder Lifetime Supporter

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    It is amazing how often someone claims to be offended, and then claims protected status as a victim.

    Being offended is a personal choice, based on subjective opinions about how the world should work. Not everyone will agree with those subjective prejudices.

    If someone comes here to learn bushcraft, they are welcome as a brother of the woods. If they come to complain about how bushcrafters look, smell, act, etc. then THEY are the ones being judgmental and showing their prejudice. At that point they cease to be one of the brethren.

    Too many threads lately have been subtly critical, showing disdain for how someone else is acting, even though they admit the behavior being criticized is perfectly legal, and not immoral or unethical.

    Sensitivity works both ways. Being offended works both ways.

    I have have respect for those who chose to be respectful. For those who choose to criticize legal behavior and claim to be offended, well, that offends my sense of fairness.

    HYOH/ LMCA
     
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  41. Pinnah

    Pinnah Tracker

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    True story from the live and live files...

    My wife and I took my young son to a nearby mall when he was 5 or 6. We went in a side entrance and noticed a large woman on bench by her self. The thing that was odd was that she was wearing a black sequined dress complete with black hose and black heels. This was odd because it was like 4 in the afternoon, the fanciest store in the malls was a JC Pennys and the fanciest restaurant within 5 miles was an Applebees.

    As we got closer, it got stranger because "she" was very obviously a he.

    We didn't sit down to chat with "her" but one could imagine his/her justifications for hanging out in a mall in drag...
    • There is nothing illegal for a man to wear woman's clothing and he was doing nothing more than exercising his legal rights.
    • Black hose and heels are "just clothing" and people shouldn't be afraid of clothes when then they see them.
    • Dressing in drag is not uncommon in other parts of the region (like Providencetown) and people with timid suburban sensibilities should be more accepting.
    • Or perhaps he simply doesn't care what people think of him and if they are shocked or offended, well then, "Screw 'em."
    It turns out, I'm neither deeply offended by seeing people OC knives or cross-dressing. I'm actually a big fan of live and let live.

    But, I'm also a big fan of personal responsibility. The cross-dresser shouldn't be either surprised or offended that he drew suspicious looks from people and neither should people who OC weapons (like knives) on recreational trails.

    I'm up in rural Vermont for the week and will keep my eye open for OC fixed blades.

    I'd be very curios to hear from you how often in the past month you've seen somebody outside of your family OCing a fixed blade over there in Maine and what the context is. It's not something I've encountered often so I'd be curious.
     
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  42. Pinnah

    Pinnah Tracker

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    ... unless it doesn't.

    The OP was specifically asking about the reactions from other people and hikers. If the OP is getting reactions from people, he's obviously on a trail or near a trail established site and isn't off on his own "in the woods" so to speak.

    I always have a knife with me when I'm hiking. Sometime its a large fixed blade. Folder or fixed, it's in my pack. It doesn't need to be on display.

    The only exception to this that I can understand is for "near country" trail (I define this as being 1 mile or so or closer to a trailhead) where there is a much higher chance of hooligans and crime. I can definitely understand people OCing weapons in those circumstances to send a message to would be attackers.
     
  43. Manzi1

    Manzi1 Tracker

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    I don't feel safe on this forum.....................

    In todays world expect to answer some questions because someone will be scared / offended in some way , shape, or form so ask yourself if you want to waste your time because you didn't think about the environment you were in when open carrying x,y, or z.
    Our "normal" is not the same as others, be discreet. Some people are attention whores, some are paranoid. Not always best to show your cards.
     
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  44. MJDavis

    MJDavis Supporter Supporter Bushclass I

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    While not in the woods, but all of this reminded me of an instance at work.
    Someone reported to HR that I was carrying a "weapon" and they were scared/concerned.
    HR rep called me off the shop-floor and requested I lay on his desk the "weapon" attached to the pocket clip in my pocket.

    So to comply with his request I removed the "weapon" from my pocket and laid my single cell AAA flashlight on his desk. He just stared at it for a couple seconds and then broke out laughing.

    We had a good conversation about people needing to mind their own business...
     
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  45. x39

    x39 Hyperborean Supporter

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    I'm big on personal responsibility as well, and in my view part of that is demonstrating to others that the presence of a tool on my belt doesn't make me a potential assailant. I demonstrate that through being courteous, helpful, and treating others respectfully. Which brings me to another point, the fixed blade knives folks typically carry around here aren't of a large or tactical variety that scream "hey, look at me!", just smallish work type knives, which even when openly carried are discreet by virtue of their size. Folks here carry because they work in the woods, in agriculture, homesteading, and on the water. The economy here is almost entirely natural resource based, folks are outdoors for way more than recreation. To put it in context, the county I live in is the size of Delaware and Rhode Island combined, with a population of just over 30,000, and one traffic light. The hardware store in my town sells Moras in a bucket at the counter for impulse buyers. I even encounter women who carry fixed blade knives. I'm not suggesting that everyone, or even most people carry a fixed blade knife here, that certainly isn't the case, but it's common enough to not be out of the ordinary.
     
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  46. Poppy Jay Jay

    Poppy Jay Jay Scout

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    Well I suppose my fixed blades aren't solely for "display". I often use mine for gathering tinder for a fire along the way. Cedar trees are common here so I use the spine of my knife to scrape off bark. I use my blades as the tools that they are...I don't see them as weapons. The .45 on my hip is a weapon.

    Sounds like only your definitions and understandings should apply to us all....good luck with that. I can't understand why a fixed blade belt knife would be carried inside of your pack instead of being readily available for use. We all do things differently based on our own experiences. We've all come here to learn and share knowlege of Bushcraft...not to be brow beatened into following the ways of the timid.
     
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  47. arleigh

    arleigh Guide

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    I expect people to look at me, long hair and a beard , wait half the men I see have long hair and a beard .
    OK Levis and T shirt, wait, I'm not the only one dressed that way either. did I start a trend ?
    OK back pack and sneakers . there it is I'm not wearing sandals .
    I wear a pouch off my belt with my cell phone and knife and flashlight , I never get a second look over that .
    I try to be stealthy bringing out my knife but not when eating steak , but still no one really cares.
    Of course many of these people see me every day .
     
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  48. Primordial

    Primordial MOA #40 Supporter

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  49. bosque bob

    bosque bob Guide

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    Interesting comments on this topic. Especially since folks here are from all over even if we generally share common interests.

    Maybe a few things to consider? What works for me in sparsely populated areas with 40 miles between what might be called towns might be very out of place in other areas. Folks OC all kinds of things here but the difference between a firearm on the hip and a firearm on the hip is very obvious. Same with long guns. And this is an area with way more wildlife than most so lots of folks hunt.

    Most of the folks we encounter most of the time are pretty reasonable while some bear watching a bit more closely. How we dress (dresses?) provide visual cues to a whole bunch of things. A worn Carhart, crusty Wellingtons and sweaty Stetson might be just run of the mill in a lot of places but get attention in others. Especially when one radiates a strong equine aroma.

    A scruffy camper with of hints wood smoke, coffee and bacon is just normal to me while someone all cammoed up, flashing all sorts of civilian interpretations of military gear is going to stand out. The differences are easy to notice and folks certainly do.

    Both have the same rights and responsibilities as citizens and either or both might be great people but folks will tend to make judgements even if nothing is mentioned. Just how we are.

    Crowd too many young chickens together and they'll develop some very destructive behaviors. People can behave like that too. Especially when the main occupation of so many public folks seems to be grounded in developing and maintaining very divisive attitudes these days during which passions are constantly stoked to maximum effect. It might sell but I'm not sure who's buying. Or why.

    Cruising eastward across the Canadian plains somewhere around Moosejaw back in the day, I shared a camp one evening with, among other strangers, a guy in disco platform shoes, "big city clothes" who was pushing a shopping cart from east to west along the highway. He'd been at it for a while apparently. He didn't mind pitching in with camp. Nice enough fellow, as I recall. But it was an easy bet he got his share of stares. Maybe we all do to 0ne degree or another. That too is just how we are.
     
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  50. Jakuka

    Jakuka Scout

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    It's all good.... I suppose some of them might be a little weirded out by me when they take an occasion and wander into the woods. And I might be a little weirded out by some of them when I reluctantly wander into a shopping mall once in a blue moon.


    [​IMG]
     

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