Baikal Over / Under .22wmr / .410 Woodsgun

Discussion in 'Firearms' started by Fretful7, Jan 16, 2016.

  1. Fretful7

    Fretful7 III

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    I've been wanting an O/U for some time now, and came across this on GB. It only had about 45 minutes left on the auction and no bidders. I thought the price was fair, but wanted to look up some info on it before biting the bullet. While doing so, the auction ended....

    [​IMG]

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    I'll have to admit, I was a bit bummed. I thought to myself, it'll just pop right up (ala the 'bay)...nope.

    A week later, it popped back up. Dang it...the temptation returned. Well...I pulled the trigger.

    There's not a lot of info out there on these, without really having to dig, but I believe I'm really gonna enjoy bumming with this gal !! She'll be arriving some time next week.

    Not my photo, but one of few I could find on the web of this combo (almost...22lr here).

    [​IMG]

    I'll also be incorporating a .22wmr to .22lr adapter into the kit.

    Thanks for looking.
    _Fret
     
  2. A K Church

    A K Church Guide

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    Local gun shop sold one to a guy I am very slightly acquainted with. Last I went to a gun show, I inquired about it, and he liked it. Vague enough, but it's the only one I know of.
     
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  3. Fretful7

    Fretful7 III

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    Glad to hear, AKC.

    I've heard a lot about O/U's and the shotty regulation, so fingers crossed !!
     
  4. Fretful7

    Fretful7 III

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    Forgot to mention....the whole purpose of the post was to ask if anyone had experience with these, and what it was?

    Thanks again !!
     
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  5. YukonMusher

    YukonMusher Scout Bushclass I

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    I shot a friends Baikal in 12g/30-06 once and liked it, besides the gun being fairly heavy. I looked at one of them in the 410/22 combination at the local gun store but never shot one. There is a gap between the two barrels and I was surprised to find the barrels flexible enough so that I could kind of bend them together with my fingers (until the barrels would touch). I have no further experience with combination guns and maybe that's normal, but it seemed flimsy to me. I figured it might influence accuracy and did not buy. I am super curious on how your gun turns out and how accurate it is! Please keep us posted!
     
  6. Polecat

    Polecat Polecat in a Poke Supporter

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    Cool, man.

    I have three MP-94s, a 12ga/.308, 12ga/7.62x39mm, and a .22WMR/20ga.

    I don't like the factory iron sights on the centerfire variants, but I like the .22WMR/20ga a lot.

    When I was shopping for a .410 combination, I went with the Double Badger instead of the MP-94, because the .410 variant of the MP-94 has the barrel selector and safety swapped backwards of how it is on most doubles (selector on the tang, safety on the trigger), and I figured I'd always be selecting the wrong barrel instead of taking the safety off, lol.

    I cut a new dovetail in mine, closer to the breech, and put a piece of a Williams peep sight in it. Can thread in a small aperture for precision long range stuff, or take it out and have a ghost ring for early season when the leaves are still on or for rabbits.

    Hmm, I thought I had a picture to post of it, but I guess not. And I am not home at the moment to take one. Sorry.

    Anyway, the .22WMR is a little much for small game IMO, but I use the CCI .22WRF ammunition for that. Still tears up more meat than a .22LR standard velocity, but eh oh well. The Winchester Dynapoints are passable, too, but still tear up a little too much meat for my taste. I don't like the light weight high velocity TMJ stuff, because although it doesn't tear up the meat too bad, it just passes straight on through and doesn't expand at all and the squirrlies seem to have time to crawl into holes before they die. Someone will say "make head shots", but I can't to that without a scope past 10 or 15 yards, lol.

    So yeah, you might like the .22WRF for shooting food.

    For shot, I like a Winchester 3" #6. I like the Winchester hulls because they can be reloaded more times than most others, and .410 is expensive to buy factory ammo for, lol. I made myself a "Lee-Loader-Alike" based on this article: http://beforeitsnews.com/self-sufficiency/2013/10/homemade-410-reloading-kit-2463934.html . I like H-110 for a powder, but it's against the rules to post load data on these fora. The load data is in all the manuals and all over Google, though.

    The Brenneke .410 slugs are more impressive than I expected. About the same ft*lb as a .357 Magnum at the muzzle, but they lose velocity faster. I wouldn't hesitate to shoot deer (at least our little WV whitetails) with them at reasonably close range.

    I am curious to see what sort of accuracy you get with the .22LR chamber adapters, too, and how long they last. You can keep your .22WMR empties, too, because some of them are thin enough that you you can cut the heads off and use them as a .22LR chamber adapter in a pinch.

    In comment to the previous poster: All the skinny barrel doubles without a rib soldered between the barrels will flex together like that. Nothing really to worry about. Indeed, you can make spacers to put between the barrels on these sorts of guns to kinda adjust the regulation a little bit if the barrels don't shoot anywhere near the same point of aim. Indeed, the centerfire MP-94 has a mechanism built into it for that very purpose, but the rimfire versions don't.

    I have a crappy article on the "less expensive" combination guns here: http://www.mrpolecat.com/articles/the_field_grade_combination_gun/index But I don't have a .410 Baikal to take pictures of for it. Would I perhaps be able to maybe twist your arm into taking some high rez detail photos of yours that I could use in my article? :D

    Anyway, yeah man. Cool gun. Let us know how it shoots for you. :D

    Edit: Here's a crappy youtube video that shows the peep sight I was talking about:
    [video=youtube;qr5i_HmGTuY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qr5i_HmGTuY[/video]
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2016
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  7. YukonMusher

    YukonMusher Scout Bushclass I

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    Thanks for your insights! I always wanted to try a combo for small game hunting...maybe one day...
     
  8. Fretful7

    Fretful7 III

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    Thanks for the feedback, Polecat !!

    Your YT videos were part of the reason I went ahead with grabbing mine up. They're some of the only info (in English LOL) that I came across in my searches.

    Great write-up you've got going there. I haven't read all the way through it, yet. I will though...

    I would have preferred a 20 bore, but like you said...these things just don't pop-up much, and hopefully I can add more to the stable over time :)

    I'd be happy to get you some good photo's of the gun once it arrives. Just let me know what exactly you had in mind. I'll post them up here, and do some reviewing on this thread as well.
     
  9. Polecat

    Polecat Polecat in a Poke Supporter

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    Awesome awesome awesome. :D :D :D

    Just whatever sort of photos aren't too much of a pain, heh. Similar angles as what's already in there for the Double Badger and the Savage 24, showing the muzzles, breech, controls and triggers, sights, and something with the whole gun all at once? But seriously, I don't want to seem demanding or anything, heh. Whatever you are cool with is a-ok with me! :D

    Maybe this will get me off my butt and out taking article photos of my own Baikals now, too. Haha.

    Many thanks, man. Many thanks.
     
  10. Polecat

    Polecat Polecat in a Poke Supporter

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    Oh yeah, I maybe should have mentioned, too....

    When I reload the .410 shells, I use the Lawrence Brand #6 plated shot. It costs a little more per unit weight, but works better in the 3" magnum shells than regular lead shot. Since the 3" magnum shells have a little more ommph (which I think is desperately needed in the .410) than the run of the mill 2.5" stuff, they tend to deform the shot more on firing, which leads to worse patterns. The Lawrence plated shot is harder than regular lead shot (not just because of the plating, but the actual lead is harder too), and doesn't deform as much, and that makes the patterns have fewer fliers with the 3" magnum shells.

    Generally I like #4 shot the best for general purpose hunting, but the .410 has so little shot in it anyway that #4 seems to be too patchy out at longer ranges. The #6 covers a little better with fewer squirrel-sized holes in it (even though it doesn't shoot as far), especially with the harder plated shot, so in my opinion that is the best compromise for my purposes.

    Even out of the tops of trees, this load seems to smack the squirrels pretty well, and they are dead when they hit the ground.

    One thing to keep in one's head about the .410 though is that the shot pattern is really really long and skinny. Not a cloud like the fatter gauges, but a little skinny column. So it is harder to shoot stuff that is moving fast (birds/clays in particular). In order to get more of the shot on target, it really helps to swing with a fixed lead in front of the target and follow through, instead of trying to make crossing shots. Unfortunately this takes more time to line up, at least for me, so snap shooting is more difficult. Singles aren't really too big a problem, but doubles are quite challenging to shoot that way (and I have enough trouble shooting doubles using a 12 gauge LOL). Think of trying to spray flying bees with a water hose, and how the column of water curves as you swing it and only a tiny bit of the water hits the bee as you swing through, right? So yeah, .410 3" great for stationary or slow moving ground/tree targets when shot like a rifle, but not so great for birds and clays when shot like a shotgun.

    The .410 sure is a weird little shell. I find myself more fascinated with it as time goes on, heh.

    Man, I talk too much... Sorry! I love combination guns so much, through..... :3

    PS: As a point of clarification, the .410 doubles I have pretty much failed to shoot were with an old Stevens double barrel .410 belonging to a relative, not with the Double Badger. Upon proof reading it read like I was shooting doubles with a single shotgun barrel, LOL. Anyway yeah.... Cool, man.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2016
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  11. feellnfroggy

    feellnfroggy Guide

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    You found it in .22 wmr is awesome. I had a Steven's in. 22lr/.410. Had it stolen in tn. They sell for 800+now
     
  12. Fretful7

    Fretful7 III

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    We've been feelin each other out.

    [​IMG]

    Cant wait to get on the range
     
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  13. Cwlongshot

    Cwlongshot Supporter Supporter

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    Sorry to bring up/back a old thread.

    But I am surfing, researching options in my 22 mag/410 quest.

    I like the Savage 24 size in 22/410 and am wondering how this Bikal and maybe the Chiappa compare?

    Anyone have all three or has any one handled all three to compare?
    Thanks

    Cw
     
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  14. DirtmanDave

    DirtmanDave Supporter Supporter

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    I have the Double Badger in 22lr/.410 and like it. Especially the double triggers. Don't have to flip a switch to change barrels. Just move my finger forward to go from 22lr to .410.
    JM2$
     
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  15. Paulyseggs

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    What does it weigh roughly? Balanced good? Choke on the 410?
     
  16. DirtmanDave

    DirtmanDave Supporter Supporter

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    Not sure of the choke but I've read they are tight. What ever that means. Balanced well. Not really heavy. Not sure the weight, check chiappa website
     
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  17. DirtmanDave

    DirtmanDave Supporter Supporter

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    • [​IMG]
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    1. Previous
    2. Next
      HomeRiflesCombinedDouble Badger

      DOUBLE BADGER FOLDING SHOTGUN/RIFLE (BLUED) 410-22LR/19"BBL
      This folding combination gun is a great choice for hunting, survival or fun recreational shooting. The Double Badger has the look, feel and function of an over/under shotgun with an attractive wood buttstock and forend but with the versatility of a rimfire cartridge. Each barrel is selectively fired by its own trigger and controlled by a top tang safety that is easy to use quickly and reliably. The Double Badger comes with a Williams fiber optic ghost ring and front sight as well as a 3/8in dovetail rail for mounting optics.



      MSRP: $424.00Dealer Only

      SKU: 500.097
      UPC: 8053670710306
      Type of Gun: Combination
      Caliber: .410-3"/22 Long Rifle
      Action: Folding Break Open
      Barrel Length: 19"
      Chokes: Fixed Full
      Capacity: 1+1
      Trigger System: Double
      Stock: Checkered Beech
      Forend: Checkered Beech
      Front Sight: Fixed Red Fiber Optic
      Rear Sight: Adjustable Elevation & Windage Williams Green Fiber Optic Ghostring
      Safety: Manual
      Weight: 5.8 lbs
      Length: 36"
      Material: Steel
      Finish: Blued
      Lever-Action: Opening Lever
      Extraction: Extractor
     
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  18. DirtmanDave

    DirtmanDave Supporter Supporter

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    I paid $300. New form my LGS.
     
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  19. Scarywoody

    Scarywoody Scout

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    I always had a thing for the old Savage .22/410. The Double badger looks interesting. To comment on the Baikal guns, I have a coach gun double barrel from them. For the price they are a good value. The machining is rough. By the pictures the Chiappa is as well. I took some files and sand paper to my double and removed the machine marks, internally and externally. Re applied a blued finish. Smoothed out the action remarkably. I assume the Chiappa would as well.
     
  20. Polecat

    Polecat Polecat in a Poke Supporter

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    So, I almost don't want to say it, because I'll be insulting the OP's gun, but.....

    I have a .22WMR/.410 Baikal, and it's.... Not so great. Not only are the controls kind of weird, but the barrel regulation on mine is really terrible. But I needed it to complete my collection.................. Lol.

    I've had two of the .22LR/.410 Chiappas (still have one of them), and they were both regulated very well (for a cheap gun). Even though the Baikal has screw-in chokes, the Chiappa still shoots a tighter / more even pattern than the Baikal's full choke. With 3" #6 shot, it smacks squirrels out of treetops like a hammer. Conversely, the regulation on the Baikal is so bad that I sometimes can't even hit them with the shot column.

    My biggest beef with the Chiappa is that the front sight is way too big. It might be alright if the barrels were longer, but that big fiber optic element up that close covers up a whole squirrel even at fairly close ranges. I accidentally found the solution to this problem when my gun fell on the ground and broke the fiber optic element out, leaving just the round housing on the front sight. Now it acts like a front target aperture sight like you'd use with a tang sight, and the gun shoots much better.

    Edit: I also thought that the rear ghost ring was far too large, as I wasn't planning to do much wing shooting with the gun. I replaced the rear Williams ghost ring unit with a screw-in aperture from a different Williams sight (a lot of them have compatible bits). This allowed me to progressively drill out the aperture to a comfortable size (it doesn't take much, but the sight is a little too far forward for the usual peep sight hole to be large enough for shotgun work). For wing shooting, the aperture can be unscrewed, and the threaded piece on the sight is about the same size as the ghost ring that originally came on the gun.

    So yeah, even though the machining on the Chiappa is a little rougher, I'd still take it over the .410 version of the Baikal, every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

    That being said, the .410 Baikal MP-94 is a completely different gun than the 20ga and 12ga Baikal MP-94s. The 20ga and 12ga models are really quite decent (indeed the rimfire/20ga is my very favorite of all the rimfire combo guns, by a very wide margin). It's just the .410 version that's not so great.

    And I've mentioned it before, but I'd still take the Chiappa over the Savage 24, even though the machining and furniture are much poorer, just because the Chiappa has double triggers and internal hammers. That single external hammer with selector on the Savage 24 isn't the greatest for making a quick followup shot with the shotgun.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2019
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  21. Cwlongshot

    Cwlongshot Supporter Supporter

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    Hows the size? I mean circumference of the receiver? The Savage is kinda large until its a 410 then its just about right to me.

    How does the Chiappa compare in that dimension?

    CW
     
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  22. Paulyseggs

    Paulyseggs Supporter Supporter

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    Thanks for the specs!

    That looks like a nice light squirrel gun!

    I have a large frame Savage 24. 22lr/20ga. My only complaint is the weight. 7-8lbs. But it shoots both barrels nearly on top of each other to 50yds.
     
  23. Polecat

    Polecat Polecat in a Poke Supporter

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    It's not huge. I mean, it's not as svelte as an expensive old European shotgun, but it isn't bad.

    They are a little strange to hold, though. The semi-pistol grip is kind of a funny shape, like it tries to be a straight stock almost, but isn't. You may want to find one to handle in person before you make a decision. Unless you're handy with a bandsaw and a rasp, then I suppose anything is possible (that's my future plan, anyway).
     
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  24. DirtmanDave

    DirtmanDave Supporter Supporter

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    I find that sighting in the 22lr is the priority. Does it hit the point of aim. The .410 doesn't matter to me as much out to say 30 to 40 yards, and that's pushing the .410 a bit.

    I like mine. The sights not so much but I've gotten used to them and are accurate enough for me.
     
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  25. Cwlongshot

    Cwlongshot Supporter Supporter

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    Agreed only a Mag for me not a LR.

    For me, for what i want this for, the 20 is too much. The 410 is a bit light. The 28 might be perfect but no one makes that. :confused: Ill be using the 410 as a rifle that shoots shot well. I can hit clays just fine with a 410, flighted game is simply tough. Give me a 28 or more and Im as good as anyone. But I dont want the 410 for that role.

    Its important for me that I get a full grip around the gun. I like and want that svelte feel. My Savage 24 22/410 almost has it. My Beretta 410 Excelsior is spot on.

    Your right PC. I need to get one in my hands first. Trouble is no one has any and it is looking like it will be a GB purchase to get one.

    I am gonna dump about six or seven pieces this next week to make funds for a 10mm G40 and a Win ‘92 clone. Then as long as funds permit. I have wanted a Taurus 72 or Rossi 59 for years (22 mag pump ala Winchester 62) and will jump on too.

    CW
     
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  26. Polecat

    Polecat Polecat in a Poke Supporter

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    How about a 28ga reducer in your 20ga?
     
  27. Cwlongshot

    Cwlongshot Supporter Supporter

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    Much of the reasoning it to get a thin trimer gun.

    My Camper reamed to MAG over 20 would be nice! But my 22/410 would be glorious!! BUT, both have serious value and I wont alter them... Heck Im hesitant to use them too much!!

    CW
     
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  28. Polecat

    Polecat Polecat in a Poke Supporter

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    I'll try to remember to go up and measure that thing for you when I get home tomorrow.
     
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  29. RJM52

    RJM52 Guide

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    CW...check with NGE...they had a Chiappa .22/.410 when I was in there last month.

    Too bad as last year I sold a mint Rossi 59 pre-safety .22 Magnum. Had it for 10 years and only shot it a few times so I moved it on...

    Bob
     
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  30. Cwlongshot

    Cwlongshot Supporter Supporter

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    OOH MAN DONT TELL ME THAT!! :p:p:D

    Haha. ill ck NGX later this week.

    I have wanted a 59 or 72 for better then ten years!! Maybe that will change later this month!!

    CW
     
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  31. RJM52

    RJM52 Guide

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    Yea...got big money for it...$175 I think...had really really nice wood...
     
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  32. Paulyseggs

    Paulyseggs Supporter Supporter

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    I like that store. Always have what I need.

    I got my 24 there. And in 2014 20ga Buckshot was no where to be found. I was repurposing birdshot rounds by dumping the shot and casting it to buck then stuffing it all back together.

    Walk into NGE. 5 boxes sittin there. Covered in dust and a normal price!!
     
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  33. Cwlongshot

    Cwlongshot Supporter Supporter

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    :(o_O:34:
     
  34. Polecat

    Polecat Polecat in a Poke Supporter

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    I forgot to measure the thing last night. Sorry!

    IMG_20190716_112344.jpg IMG_20190716_112321.jpg IMG_20190716_112354.jpg IMG_20190716_112302.jpg
     
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  35. Cwlongshot

    Cwlongshot Supporter Supporter

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    Ooh that looks good PC!!

    Im meeting a friend at a shop later today thats supposed to have one of these. Hope hope I can at least get my hands on it. I dont need to “own it” today. But like to know if its gonna be what I wnat

    Your pics sure look like it will. Thank you!!

    Cw
     
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  36. Cwlongshot

    Cwlongshot Supporter Supporter

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    Im back home...

    The shop had a couple double badgers. A 22/20 and a 22/410. So I did see the size I like. But wow are they stiff to open!

    I think I will pass on the DB and continue the wait for a Savage 24.

    BUT that opens the door to my second choice! A 59 or 72 Pump 22 magnum. M62 copies made by Rossi and Taurus. I think the M72 would be first choice.

    CW
     
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  37. Cwlongshot

    Cwlongshot Supporter Supporter

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    duplicate posting
     
  38. Polecat

    Polecat Polecat in a Poke Supporter

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    Yeah, they are a little weird to open. You push the lever down until the strikers cock, and then have to give it a little "bump" to open the action on up. Definitely takes some getting used to.

    I think it's an artifact of the very first release of the DB: When they first came out, with some guns you could break the action open without pushing the lever far enough to cock the strikers. This caused the firing pins to protrude, and the gun could fire if the action was slammed closed too hard. There was a recall. I assume they tightened things up significantly so there was no margin of error for that to happen, and that's where the need to "bump" it comes from.
     
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  39. Swampyankee101

    Swampyankee101 Scout

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    Are the Russian ones under embargo now? Never see them around.
     
  40. Polecat

    Polecat Polecat in a Poke Supporter

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    Yeah. Baikal was a subsidiary of the Kalashnikov Concern, and their importation was banned under the Obama regime. Ironically, they found other ways to export AKs to the US (Molot, etc), but the Baikal tooling was never moved. So all the ban actually accomplished was to stop the importation of some unpopular break-action hunting rifles. Typical. :rolleyes:
     
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