Condensation Questions

Discussion in 'Sleep Systems' started by SpecialAgentDBCooper, Dec 14, 2018.

  1. SpecialAgentDBCooper

    SpecialAgentDBCooper Scout

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    Hey guys,

    Getting ready for some winter hammocking, same story, etc.

    I'm really resisting getting an underquilt. It costs too much and I'm no good at DIY stuff, even though I have one of those Costco throws.

    My question, is there past a certain temperature where condensation isn't a factor anymore? Surely if it's cold enough, moisture is no longer a problem?

    My Reflectix sleep pad is a moisture trap. It works, but I don't like it. I've been using synthetic bags up until now. I just purchased a Klymit 0c, 1200g fill down bag. I really don't want to to deal with any wetness. It's the biggest reason why I'm using the hammock. Otherwise I'd just use my Mountain Hardware sauna.

    Second question, how is a foam pad more breathable than Reflectix?? Is it actually? Most are recommending a cheap foam pad vs the insulation.

    I know this has been asked to death.. but I'm more curious about condensation than anything..
     
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  2. cbrianroll

    cbrianroll Professional Tinkerer Supporter

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    No idea..."broke" has a hammock thread I think discussing condensation and underquilts.
     
  3. designtom

    designtom Scout

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    I'm not so sure about the entire hypothesis.

    The only time I hammocked below 0 F there was frozen condensate everywhere. On my bag, in my hammock, on my tarp. I created my own micro climate.
     
  4. SpecialAgentDBCooper

    SpecialAgentDBCooper Scout

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    I guess it never gets cold enough for condensation.

    What sleep/shelter system were you using?
     
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  5. designtom

    designtom Scout

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    10x10 BCUSA regular nylon tarp
    Simple gathered end hammock (Hammock Bliss No See Um No More), bugnet under makes pocket for foam pads
    36" wide extra thick foam pad
    30" foam blue pad
    2" thick foam seat
    -40 F Wiggy's FTRSS (4.6 lb wide/regular 0 F Superlight bag, with 2.5 lb overbag)
    TNF Polarguard booties
    Pair of fleece sweat pants to back up the zipper draft tube
    Wool coat over the foot end of my sleeping bag
    I had the hood cinched down tight. I was breathing through a 1" blowhole

    Went to bed in completely new/dry clothes.
    -10 F from one weather station, -11 F at another.

    If I do it again, I'm adding an underquilt under the three pieces of foam
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2018
  6. grey mouse

    grey mouse Scout

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    You'll create your own condensation from your breath and sweating at all temperatures. It's only natural. The degree at which you sweat, the way that it passes through materials, and your breath will change little once your below freezing. I suggest making anything that is a vapor barrier the outermost layer so as to allow all of the materials in between to be able to breath and store humidity as best as they can throughout the night and allow the condensation from the exterior air and your breath to settle on that vapor barrier or vapor resistant material.

    Although I rarely see 0°F I do try to get out when it's the coldest temps. I wear only a good set of thermals, wool socks, and a wool beenie to bed in order to let my perspiration pass. Of course cotton is 100% out of the question for clothing. When I used a pad beneath me (R3.4 value) I made sure not to trap air by having another layer wrapping me and blocking the moisture from getting out. I would suggest replacing your pads with an under quilt protector made from a breathable material such as Argon 90 designed to hold your 36" pad underneath you (2QZQ has them for $45). That would give you a few inches of air space for evaporation instead of having the pad directly under your body. The UQP would also aid in blocking the wind from robbing you of warmth. I would also consider placing some reflectix in between the 36" pad and the UQP. That way if you get condensation it is under you at the pad area which would allow for evaporation during the day and also keep you drier at night. A simple DIY under quilt made of fleece would also aid in both retaining warmth with breath-ability but make sure to not have it pressing hard against you when you snug it up as that will reduce the R-Value.

    Beware of condensation as it lowers the R-value of items once they start collecting moisture. Lower R-values will result in you packing on additional materials to stay warm but also creating a viscous cycle as to where the additional items restrict vapor and cause further condensation. Sometimes less is more.

    https://www.2qzqhammockhanger.com/product/under-quilt-protectors/

    Breath Condensation Calculator http://www.sciencebits.com/ExhaleCondCalc?calc=yes
     
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  7. grey mouse

    grey mouse Scout

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    Btw, I forgot to mention that I read a study on weight loss in a sleeping bag due to breathing moisture. Test subjects who wore a simple filter mask lost about 50% less weight through moisture loss which resulted in average of 108 Kcal savings per night allowing them to carry less food on long hikes due to saved calories. Point of this story ? Wear anything over your face such as a breathable balaclava and you'll stay both warmer and produce less condensation on your gear at night. Maybe you won't need to breath out of that 1" hole anymore lol.
     
  8. TAHAWK

    TAHAWK Guide

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    Unless you are dead or at 70-100% relative humidity at your skin, you perspire. (Such relative humidity levels are at least unusual in temperatures much below freezing.) You may not notice it ("insensible perspiration": " Insensible Perspiration - body sweats to maintain humidity level of 70% next to skin - particularly in a cold, dry environment you can lose a great deal of moisture this way." Rick Curtis, Outdoor Action Guide to Hypothermia and Cold Weather Injuries, Princeton University (1995)),.but it is going on while you live.

    In cold weather camping, the warm, moist air moves outward through air-permeable clothing (including the typical sleeping bag) as water vapor until it reaches Dew Point, at which point it becomes liquid water - to be absorbed by any thing it encounters that is not hydrophobic - such as down, wool or cotton. Depending on external temperature, it may reach Dew Point on or inside a sleeping bag. If it's cold enough, you get ice on or inside your sleeping bag.

    These physical facts that govern the known environment, explain why thirteen years ago, the U.S. military largely went to all man-made insulating materials
    (Wool survives in stockings.) - they are incapable of absorbing water into their fibers and lose the relatively small amounts of liquid water clinging to the exterior of the fiber MUCH faster than "natural" fibers used for clothing, all of which do absorb liquid water. At about the same time, the US military relegated Gore-Tex and the like almost entirely to sedentary activities as they effectively do not breath.



    Aside, of course, from miracles and sales pitches. I have encountered many persons of deep faith and many salesmen. I am, apparently, not faithful enough and often too cynical for the salesmen, and so, for example, have not used my beautiful down sleeping bag in over 35 years, save for one trip to Aizona, where I could "air" it out each morning on a rock in the sun and low humidity - all of which we lack in northern Ohio and PA in Winter.. But it knows I love it.:)

    A foam pad is not breathable, usually. (Sponge-like pads that do breath were tried decades ago, and found few advocates. They are huge, pick up water like a sponge, being sponges, collapse under your weight - shedding loft (insulation value), and do not stop moisture from below you being pumped upwards by your weight.) Yet, I have never noticed liquid moisture on the top (body) side of the Therm-A-Rest and similar foam-filled air mattresses I have used since 1981 or the few closed-cell foam pads I have used since then (They hurt!). It must wick away to the sides, 'cause the top outer cover of my bags are often damp - as the inside stays dry. (I have tried with some success sacrificial light quilts that move the Dew Point outwards, leaving my sleeping bag totally dry.)
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2018
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  9. SpecialAgentDBCooper

    SpecialAgentDBCooper Scout

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    HOLY! That's cold weather, and also a sh** ton of padding! Surely all that foam would easily cause moisture build up? I may be wrong, but PA sounds a lot wetter than Ontario? Mind you we aren't that much farther north.

    I think perhaps if I use the Costco throw as an underquilt, my Klymit R4.5 sleep pad and my wool blanket as an overquilt, plus my -18c down bag, I should be able to keep warm and dry. Sounds like any kind of non-breathable padding directly under me will get wet, no matter what weather condition.
     
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  10. SpecialAgentDBCooper

    SpecialAgentDBCooper Scout

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    What about the MMSS Gortex bivy?

    I've been considering bringing using a silk liner inside the bag and a bivy, instead of the Reflectix or foam padding underneath.

    Is the MSS bivy known to condensate as well? Never really had a chance to test it out in the wild.

    I should mention, my hammock, made by Little Shop of Hammocks, made with 2.2 ripstop, has 2 bottom layers, with plenty of room to fit the insulation, plus my Klymit sleep pad. How helpful is that extra laying of ripstop for moisture?
     
  11. grey mouse

    grey mouse Scout

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    Apparently late last night I misread the post above my first one. I thought it was the OP's question lol. It's still valid though. For the OP I would suggest not putting the reflectix in the pouch section of your double layer hammock. Instead placing it in the recommended UQP will help you immensely on the condensation issues. If you require/desire additional bottom insulation I would suggest a a Costco style UQ or PLUQ. This would allow you to generate a micro-climate of warmth under you, a wind resistant barrier, and again if there is a moisture issue it will be away from you at the pad which is no longer in contact with you.

    I often hang in a swamp near here and tried a pad in my hammock "pouch" area and bundling up inside a Snugpak Cocoon. While my Therm-A-Rest Scout pad is great it does allow for condensation especially since I hang almost always near a water source. I have also tried the reflectix and had similar issues as many posters. When I went to quilts all of those issues that I was creating went away. Of course now there are new issues such as my breath on top of the quilt (which is stopped by a bib).

    I would like to touch on the subject of tarps also. I have had it literally rain from inside of my tarp on a dry night because I had two people under my BCUSA 10x12 tarp at the same time. The pitch was wide and it was set low in case of heavy rains but that allowed the condensation to make it a miserable night. I woke up thinking that it was raining and that the tarp was leaking before realizing that I couldn't hear any rain lol. I now use a different tarp with sides that stay way off of me and it's great. Lots of people use their tarp for keeping heat in when it's cold. Myself...I'd rather have the head room and ventilation in order to prevent condensation and allow it to evaporate. I make the quilts work for their money :18:. I don't use a tarp with doors because I use a Grizz Beak. If I used doors then heck I might as well be in a tent ;)

    I understand that people often pitch their tarps low because they are using a minimal sized tarp or a tarp of a certain design that doesn't allow for the "best" rain coverage but does allow a great weight savings. That's just not me. I have found my happy medium in tarp weight, snow/rain load support, ventilation, and roominess. There is only one tarp purchase in my future for when I can actually get to where it is below zero. Other than that I am happy and condensation free atm. Find your happy place :4:

    PS-I have too much experience with the MSS gortex stuff lol. I never really had too much of a condensation issue with them. I just sold two full like new sets for $100 to a feller with kids. I have literally slept in a puddle in a heavy rain with the MSS and not had condensation issues. It's a great system but way too heavy and bulky to lug around anymore.
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2018
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  12. TAHAWK

    TAHAWK Guide

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    Until I hit 73, I tented out every month for 28 years. I never once, for whatever reason, had condensation on the top of pad(s) under me. I have often had snow or, at warmer "cold," rain inside the tent (Some tents ventilate better than others. (The old "A" tent is often better at bottom-to-top ventilation than newer gee wizz domes.) and frost on the bottom of he pad(s). So far as I know, -17 F is as low as it has been.
     
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  13. TAHAWK

    TAHAWK Guide

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    "Is the MSS bivy known to condensate as well? Never really had a chance to test it out in the wild."


    Poor-Tex works poorly in cold weather - trapping moisture. It does not breath enough to matter when dry and cannot breath through the thinnest film of water (Think rain.).

    Here's what the US military finally figured out about fifteen years ago (Most other nations never fell for the myth.):

    "While Gore-Tex is still a component of the PCU system [amounts to ECWCS GEN III], its use is minimized to specific conditions in which there is significantly more moisture outside the system than inside the system. The Level 5 soft shell is a more crucial piece of the PCU because of the various conditions in which Gore-Tex fails to perform:

    If the pores of the Gore-Tex fabric becomes saturated, moisture will fail to evaporate from the shell.

    If the shell gets cold and moisture inside freezes, bonding the insulation layer to the shell, this prohibits the movement of vapor and moisture towards the outside of the system. [Plus, the little holes freeze shut, making "waterproof'breathable" garments plastic bags.]

    If the user is not in motion and is losing heat [Think sleeping], rather than generating heat, the rate of moisture transfer will lower, significantly reducing efficient transfer [of moisture]."
    https://www.itstactical.com/gearcom/apparel/comprehensive-guide-protective-combat-uniform/
     
  14. SpecialAgentDBCooper

    SpecialAgentDBCooper Scout

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    My hammock has a ridge line. I was thinking of draping the wool over it and creating an overquilt with it. Figured it would be best for moisture.

    As for the underquilt.. Has anyone ever used a tarp as an underquilt? What about clipping the down throw to the tarp and then under the hammock? Would that, theoretically, not be an easy no-sew solution? I have a 5x7 tarp I just found.. I also have an awesome ripstop poncho that is about that size, both would work, no? I'm guessing the poncho doesn't breathe well enough. What do you guys think?
     
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  15. camp casey

    camp casey Guide

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    When winter hammock camping moisture will build up over time and insulation loses its ability to keep you warm, you can go the vapor Barrier route or find a way to dry it out.
    I use a hammock hot tent with a wood burning stove, a good sized tarp with ends would work too.
    By the time breakfast and tea is done my gear is dried out, ready to hit the trail, good luck.
     
  16. SpecialAgentDBCooper

    SpecialAgentDBCooper Scout

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    Decided to get out there and try some things out. Made a short video walking through the whole process. I was able to use the small tarp and Costco throw to make an UQ and UQP. It was easier than I thought. What do you guys think? You guys think condensation would be an issue then?

     

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  17. grey mouse

    grey mouse Scout

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    My concern with your set up is that the tarp is designed to be waterproof hence vapor impermeable. This will retard or stop the moisture from leaving/passing and thus cause condensation. Quilts and quilt protectors are purposefully designed with materials that promote moisture leaving/passing by being a vapor retarder only. Your set up looks good though and I would suggest trying it at home at around 50°F to start depending on you top quilt, blanket, etc. It's good that you have a gap under you so that you can add another costco style blanket if needed during your field trials. Best of luck and let us know how it goes. ;)
     
  18. gargoyle

    gargoyle Scout

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    A Costco quilt is good for a 55-60* night. Being it was quick test (and you were active and warm), it may have felt warm. Give yourself an hour or two test at home outdoors where you can bail out to the house.
    A underquilt has a lot of features that make it work. Loft being a main concern. A 20 degree quilt will have 2-1/2 or 3” of fluffy goodness. It’ll fit snugly without compressing the insulation, hence reducing drafts.

    Price wise you can go with a synthetic uq. But most will agree, down is the best for backpacking.

    Condensation is an issue. It’s something that can’t be avoided! We create vapor. It can be reduced with proper gear and tactics. But it’ll always be an issue.

    Your kit as it stands would be best suited for summer temps.
    Sorry, just trying to save you a miserable night.
     
  19. grey mouse

    grey mouse Scout

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    That's a very good point. It will always be an issue to some degree. Make sure that your trying to reduce it and not eliminate it as that would be a daunting task with a good chance of not succeeding. We all have had to deal with it from time to time and it will always be a potential issue no matter the conditions or gear. Quality gear designed for reduction of condensation will definitely help but it will not always eliminate the issue 100% of the time.
     
  20. GreenFrog

    GreenFrog In the Forest Supporter Hardwoodsman Bushclass III

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    Got any pictures? Don't think I've seen a hammock hot tent yet.
     
  21. camp casey

    camp casey Guide

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    D9BE2C50-70AD-40A9-B7DD-C3231E7476FC.jpeg CF09CE3A-C6CA-4B22-ACFE-84C769AF1D94.jpeg
     
  22. Juany118

    Juany118 Supporter Supporter

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    A few things. First reflectix only really works if you have air space between the reflectix and Whatever. If you don't have the air space then it's a conductor (robbing heat, bringing cold) and ends up with condensation due to the same lack of space(this applies to the construction industry as well.). It's a reflector, hence the name, and so their needs to be space for the long wave radiation (heat) to bounce around in. Yes the stuff rocks, but only when used properly. Sorry but what amounts to shiny mylar is always going to trap moisture unless there is air space between it and whatever, it's just science.


    Also, reflectix isn't what we would traditionally call insulation. It has NO R-Value. It simply reflects long wave radiation as I describe above. A CF pad, insulated air pad, underquilt etc provide true insulation because it not only keeps the heat in but cold out. It may seem pedantic but there is a difference.

    Second, yes, most foam pads are more "breathable". They are porous, to one degree or another, plus some, like the Thermarest Z-lite, or Ridgerest, have bumps or groves that provide additional paths for moisture to escape.
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2018
  23. grey mouse

    grey mouse Scout

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    To get slightly more technical... Reflictix has a perm rating of 6.3 (see below) making it a class 3 vapor retarder (ASTM E 96) barrier that does allow some moisture vapor to pass through it. It does not have any R-value as Juany118 stated above. The reflective surface does reflect the long wave radiation both while in contact with your skin and when there is an air barrier but the material is most effective when you allow that radiation to warm the retarded air space between you and the barrier. Since Reflectix has no R-value most of the warming action from the long wave radiation is reduced dramatically by the conduction of the material when it is in contact with you. You may actually loose more heat via conduction than what is being radiated back at you (I have not tested this). It is this fact (no r-value) that presents our issue. Having a moist warm air space that is retarded by a low or no r-value barrier with a high temperature differential between the exterior and interior spaces will cause condensation.

    Examples of similar perm ratings to 6.3 :
    100 sheets of 6mil Polyethylene plastic sheets-aka Visqueen (.06 perm each)
    Building paper, asphalt-saturated felt 15# (5.0 perm)
    OSB Sheathing 1/2" (perms 1-7)
    Nine sheets of Plywood, exterior, 1/4" (.7 perms each)

    Now let's further consider the fact that cotton cloth (we will assume underwear or t-shirt material) has a perm rating of .347 at 12°F so that it will give us a reference that most of us are familiar with along with the Visqueen material for allowing moisture to pass through it.

    Assuming the Chicago weather today at 71% humidity at around 34°F and using the formula "WVT = A x T x Delta P x Perms" we can determine that if we have a theoretical ideal air space of 4"x40"x72" (960 sq ft) under us (3.5" loft plus reflectix), an exterior humidity of 71% RH (32°F) and an interior space of 40% RH (at 72°F being preferred) we get a vapor pressure of .19415 {(71x.1803)-(40x.7912)=.19145 VP}, and so... 960(A)x1(T)x.19415(VP)x6.3(Perms)=1174.2 WVT (grains of water) or 5.961 lbs of water or 1.5 pints/.75 quarts per hour trying to get out of our space that is being retarded and trying to condense on us. You would feel better if the reflectix was on the ground and have far less condensation to deal with. Please correct me if my math was off :3:.

    Knowing how the moisture is retarded, how much retardation (impermeability) we have, how much moisture there is, and how the interior and exterior temps affect it will help us better understand the problem so that we can address the issue directly. This is why those expensive quilts are made to breath but only at a certain desired rate. Too much and your cold. Too little and your wet. Also remember that different humidity levels alone at the same temperature can cause you to feel "colder" or "hotter" but that is a different story....

    References:
    https://www.scribd.com/document/363259323/Permeability-of-Commong-Building-Material-EEM-00259

    https://weather-and-climate.com/average-monthly-Humidity-perc,Chicago,United-States-of-America

    https://chestofbooks.com/crafts/met...-Fractional-Parts-Of-A-Gallon-Or-An-Inch.html

    https://www.lenntech.com/calculators/humidity/relative-humidity.htm

    http://usa.dupontteijinfilms.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Mylar_Chemical_Properties.pdf
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2018
  24. SpecialAgentDBCooper

    SpecialAgentDBCooper Scout

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    Wow. That's crazy the amount of information you guys know about reflectix! I've got to think more on the conditions I go out in and customize accordingly, which is usually what I do, but not to this level with the condensation.

    Just curious: if I had a wool blanket, would it be better served directly under me, above my Klymit sleep pad? Or would it be better in my underquilt? That would help with the condensation? I could sandwich the down blanket in the wool blanket? That wouldn't be hard to set up with what I have.
     
  25. grey mouse

    grey mouse Scout

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    You don't want to place it inside your under quilt in a way that would compress your insulation. That would be detrimental. I would think that you would be best served by placing the wool between you and the pad by laying it under you in the hammock. That way you have a semi-permeable barrier between you and your pad that can still insulate if it absorbs some slight moisture. It would also keep the moisture off of your under quilt and make it easy to set out to dry during the day if needed. Another option would be to suspend it under your pad between the hammock and the under quilt ensuring that it did not compress the down in the under quilt. You could attach it to the hammock with some simple clamps. I don't know if your using a double hung hammock or not so either place the pad into the pouch area or if the pad is inside the hammock then just hang it below you.
     
  26. grey mouse

    grey mouse Scout

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  27. Juany118

    Juany118 Supporter Supporter

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    All great suggestions though, I think, he is looking for solutions to avoid getting an underquilt. Regardless having the wool blanket as a potential absorbtion layer is a great idea.

    That said something just clicked in my head. There is usually a lot of ventilation in using a hammock set up. Unless you are in ambient conditions that would result in either dew or frost conditons come morning, is it possible that part of the issue is you are sleeping to warm and so are sweating? In winter getting so warm that you start sweating up a storm can actually be problematic.
     
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  28. grey mouse

    grey mouse Scout

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    That's definitely a possibility. Some people sweat more than others. He may even be a hot sleeper.
    I used the term "quilt" because he used it in his suggestion on the last question. The link that I posted above was for him to get a cheaper alternative to a production quilt. A $45 under quilt protector (Argon 90), buy two Black Diamond Quilts for $39, and a snap kit from walmart for under $10. Rip out the stitching to make baffles and attach with snaps. A modular system. That will get you a rating of around 40°F or slightly less for $95 with little condensation issues. He could even save more by using the costco quilt he already has and just buy one more for $19 for a total of about $75.
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2018
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  29. riverjoe

    riverjoe Supporter Supporter

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    DB the Costco quilts are only good for about 1/2 inch of loft the way they are quilted .
    All my gear is diy and I’ve always followed the rule “
    One inch of loft for every 20 degrees starting at 70 . So 1 inch underquilt
    1 inch over for 50 deg

    2 and 2 for 30 and so on

    I have always felt a sleeping bag was worthless in a hammock because your loft on the underside is compressed to ziltch .
    I have made an under quilt with two Costco blankets but you have to rip out the cross seams to allow loft . I’ve tried that one down to freezing and it worked fine . I think pads reflectix or any non breathable material is going to cause the cold spot in the middle of your back that will wake you up shivering at 2:30 in the morning.
    In spite of hype to the contrary there is no miracle insulation that is not going to require loft IMHO .
    I also enclose my hammock with abreathable winter poncho to create a micro climate and I breath through a woolen cloth similar to a Shemag I think . This cloth is usually wet in the AM from all the trapped moisture from my breath The only issue I ever had with condensation is a light frost on the under side of my micro climate
    Poncho at a -7 degree morning and I just brushed that away with the back of my glove .
    If you listen to shugs you tubes you’ll gain a lot of no bs knowledge .
    Those hammock forum guys think nothing of dropping a grand or two on gear however .
    The other problem with the fancy down under quilts are gaps between the hammock and the quilt which allow cold air to get in . That’s one reason I built insulated hammocks with their own loft .
     
  30. grey mouse

    grey mouse Scout

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    Us hammock forum guys ? lol Yes I may be guilty of dropping a grand on a set of quilts :54:. I'll probably spend another three grand next year on quilts in fact since my wife "needs" two bespoke sets also. Heck come to think of it I plan on spending $800 on two new four season tarps next year too even though I just had a three season one made for her. It's an addiction..I know...I need to go to Hammock Forums Anonymous o_O. You are right that ol' Shug is definitely the one to look to for information. I love his videos.

    I like this rule
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2018
  31. SpecialAgentDBCooper

    SpecialAgentDBCooper Scout

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    Well.. I guess I'm full circle back where I started.

    Every time I think there is a shortcut to this here outdoors experience, there isn't. Some of these costs are too hard to justify, also I have no sewing skills.

    It may be time to get into cowboy camping..
     
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  32. grey mouse

    grey mouse Scout

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    My problem is that I have the sewing skills but would need some additional equipment such as a new foot on the sewing machine in order to build stuff. That and the fact that my arthritis will no longer allow me to sew very well is why I simply purchase my stuff. I'd love to be able to make more gear on my own. Heck I was almost at the point of building a new shop just to make me a set of tarps but couldn't justify the expenditure knowing that I would have increasing difficulties sewing and not be physically able to do it for much longer.

    I was sewing my own school clothes from patterns by the 9th grade but that was a long long time ago lol. We were too poor to buy clothes so we made our own. Also, my grandmother believed that a man shouldn't rely on a woman and also needed to be more rounded in order to offer a woman more hence why I can cook so well. As I age I really appreciate the hard work she made putting together all of those meals from scratch when her hands were weathered in that old wooden shack with no heating other than the stove.
     
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  33. grey mouse

    grey mouse Scout

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    It occurred to me that the condensation is the most when the reflectix is used in a manner that was at the hot and cold barrier. When I used it earlier in my hanging trials I always placed it in the pouch area of the double hammock and that in itself helped reduce the condensation because I also had a pad on top of it in that pouch. Also, I used my cocoon under me as a quilt. If you keep the reflectix away from being directly in contact with your exterior it will greatly improve the condensation issue but make sure that there is some sort of air barrier between you and the material such as a pad. Maybe a knobby style closed cell like Therm-A-Rest would help. An exterior wind resistant low r-value material that would substitute for a quilt or protector might be the ticket for you.
     
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  34. SpecialAgentDBCooper

    SpecialAgentDBCooper Scout

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    That's beautiful man.

    I wish I had learned sewing from my mom. I certainly got my cooking skills from her.

    I often think purchasing a used, basic sewing machine and learn. I still have my body working for me, it would be a great skill to have.
     
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  35. SpecialAgentDBCooper

    SpecialAgentDBCooper Scout

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    I was wondering.. with the setup I had in the video, but instead of using the Costco down throw, what if I used the black/cold bag from the MMSS? I would assume that would outperform the down throw?

    I have a Klymit KSB down sleeping bag, which will be what I use in the hammock. That is a -18c bag, 1200g fill.
     
  36. grey mouse

    grey mouse Scout

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    First off...you might want to try using that bag as a quilt. Open it up, turn it upside down, insert body, and snuggle away. Works very well and doesn't compress the insulation. Secondly, yes the mss bag would work better but you'll have an issue using them unless your making them into a cocoon. Lastly, I didn't see a tarp in your video. What are you using ? Blocking that wind is very very important.
     
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  37. SpecialAgentDBCooper

    SpecialAgentDBCooper Scout

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    Do you mean using the down sleeping bag as an overquilt? I guess that would make sense, since anything underneath me would be completely crushed anyways.

    For the black bag, I was going to unzip and then clip to the tarp like I did the Costco throw. Essentially swapping the throw for the unzipped cold bag.

    The video wasn't from an overnight stay. I was just playing around for a couple hours. I didn't bother with a tarp, but I usually have a 10x10, standard, nothing fancy, that is in cold/windy situations, usually A framed pretty close to the ground. A tarp has always been helpful to me.
     
  38. TAHAWK

    TAHAWK Guide

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    I know zip about hammocking. BUT couldn't the under insulation be placed beneath the surface holding your weight so the insulation is not crushed?
     
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  39. grey mouse

    grey mouse Scout

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    Yes. That's how an under quilt works. I believe his concern was crushing the insulation when he laid inside the sleeping bag inside of the hammock. We need to convert you Tahawk ;)
     
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  40. TAHAWK

    TAHAWK Guide

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    I sleep on my sides. Not a hammock candidate. Nada!
     
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  41. grey mouse

    grey mouse Scout

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    I hear ya. I sleep on my side at home and sometimes when in a hammock. I can't sleep any other way. Initially that is what kept me from trying a hammock but I finally adapted :dblthumb:
     
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  42. TAHAWK

    TAHAWK Guide

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    'Ya must be more flexible.
     
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  43. grey mouse

    grey mouse Scout

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    Lol no I just lay on the diagonal in an 11' hammock. When I originally started I tried the 9' length that was too narrow and could not go diagonal at all hence why I got a longer and wider hammock. On the diagonal I'm almost flat. If you were in an asymetrical cut hammock it might even be easier.
     
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  44. SpecialAgentDBCooper

    SpecialAgentDBCooper Scout

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    I am definitely a side sleeper as well. My right side. I have no issues with my large hammock. Quite comfortable actually.

    While I have this thing going..

    I was wondering.. is convection easier to deal with compared to conduction? It seems that greater effort is required while sleeping suspended, but how does it work when sleeping on the ground? You can't get any loft beneath you, so is it the lack of movement of air? Does the ground insulate you, to an extent?

    I'm completely out of camping days that aren't freezing. I hate using my tent and an UQ will have to wait. But I still want to get out there.

    What about condensation on the ground? Does convection also equal to less moisture build up?
     
  45. grey mouse

    grey mouse Scout

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    Personally I think that conduction can be worse as you could possibly be affected by both convection and conduction if under a lean to style shelter and not a tent. It can be easier to deal with conduction as you simply need to place more and/or better insulators under you to retard heat loss. It is usually easier to find something to stuff under you to sleep on and sometimes more comfortable (depending on material) than trying to stop convection in a hammock. That said you "could" stack pine straw or other material under the hammock to reduce convection but I think that a tarp with doors hung low would possibly perform better.

    As a note I can't sleep on my back due to sleep apnea and needing a machine most nights hence why I sleep on my side. When I do sleep on my back it's with my head elevated in order to reduce some of issues. I often sleep with my legs pulled up "indian/yoga" style when sleeping on my back for long periods.
     
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  46. Jeremy Hess

    Jeremy Hess Tracker

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    A queen size 100% wool blanket makes a great under quilt when hammocking and blocks wind well and also allows it all to breath. If you already have one around try including it on a trip and see how it works for you.i can actually wrap mine all the way around and it works great it's a bit bigger then a queen
     
  47. UncleCarm

    UncleCarm Tracker

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    Do you have any pictures of that set-up? Also, what is the lowest temperature that you used this set-up in?
     
  48. Jeremy Hess

    Jeremy Hess Tracker

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    I don't currently I got a new phone but I got the idea from a Dave Canterbury youtube video I'll see if I can find it and post the link for it. All you need is a couple blanket pins or if you want to go really light wrap it under and up to your ridge line and just pull the ends together and put a stone in the ends and tie it or make a wooden blanket pin by splitting a stick about thumb thickness and 6 inches long 3/4 of the way down and lash it. Then slide it over the ends of the blanket and onto the ridge line lash the other end to hold it tight.
     
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