Down equivalent to poncho liner?

Discussion in 'Sleep Systems' started by CamoDeafie82, Aug 5, 2019.

  1. CamoDeafie82

    CamoDeafie82 Guide

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    Guys, whats the equivalent warmth, or warmer UL quilt thats similar to the USGI Poncho Liner/woobie? I'm wanting something similar in weight or lighter, more packable, and similar sized, maybe no ties though... seems the closest I can find are the Costco down throws but these are smaller than the size I want... I'd prefer not to spend $100+ though. Anyone here have experience with PureDown polyester or nylon shelled 50x70 throws? Seems 75% down to 25% feathers... not sure thats a good thing? I might be more likely to make my own Poncho Liner sized down quilt, if I can justify the cost of the down fill (how many oz to get to about 40-50degrees in say 65x80ish size?)
     
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  2. Moondog55

    Moondog55 Bushmaster

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    How many ounces of down needed will be related to the fill power of the down used and this will naturally be related to the cost.
    Over at BPL there is an article that shows relativity between downs and synthetics. The best of the synthetics are almost equivalent to 650 FP down and the cheap generic polyester in a poncho liner is almost equal to 500FP down.
    A poncho liner is about 1Clo rated on its own when new; the same as a jacket liner, directly related to how thick it is at 4Clo per inch of thickness
    If you use 650FP down you will need 1 ounce for every square yard, call a 65" * 80" inch blanket 6 yards square? So say 6 ounces of down; use 900FP down and you can halve that quantity. There will be a lot of work sewing and stuffing as it needs a lot of 6"*6" compartments, use more down and you can use bigger squares to 10" * 10" like the WM Caribou. If you want warmer than a woobie then you need to double the amount of down naturally or use the same weight in higher fill power

    https://ripstopbytheroll.com/collections/natural-insulation/products/hyperdry-850-fp-dwr-goose-down
    Realistically for the amount of work in sewing you would need to use 6 ounces of good down so $76- plus shipping; add in the cost of the shell fabric and you are well over the hundred dollars

    Getting 2 of the CostCo throws and simply stitching them together is a lot less work. Note that most LW fabrics are not 65 inches wide so if you really want that width you have to pay a premium for wide loom UL fabrics or piece together
    https://ripstopbytheroll.com/collec...bric/products/0-9-oz-membrane-15-poly-taffeta
    Note that it is 58inches wide including the selvage which you can't use so you lose a half inch each side
    3 yards of 3.6ounce APEX is much less work and why most people use it
    https://ripstopbytheroll.com/collections/synthetic-insulation/products/climashield-apex-3-6-oz-sq-yd
    I hope my hour of research helps
     
  3. oathkeeper762

    oathkeeper762 Bushbum & PT Wanderer Supporter Bushcraft Friend Bushclass I

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    From my personal experience, one of the Costco Down throws would be a close equivalent to a woobie maybe a tad bit warmer depending on the manufacturer of the poncho liner. You could check the specs on those for the approximate fill specs.
     
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  4. CamoDeafie82

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    I have an underquilt for my hammock thats made of 2 Costco down throws hand sewn together; seems online the same brand's throws are $80+ on Amazon?

    PureDown's 50x70 throw with either nylon shell or polyester shell, doesn't give Clo or fill power rating, or even how many oz of fill.... but says 75% down with 25% feathers... but for $55? Again, not sure that's a good thing or not?

    On the other hand, I've found used down bags for relatively low prices ($30-80 depending on brand and size)... but most down bags I've found were too dang small for my girth :/ it's like they expect skinny people to buy and use them..

    Edit. From what I remember, down and UL fabrics beat everything else in terms of weight and compressibility... I'm wanting to get stuff compressed even smaller... for a smaller pack design.
     
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  5. Seeker

    Seeker Woods Bum Supporter Bushclass I

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    I can only respond with the engineer's triangle of good, fast, and cheap; pick two. In the camping/bushcraft case, it's light, warm, and cheap; pick two.

    My USGI poncho liner is around 25oz, if i recall correctly, and keeps me comfortable to about 65*.

    My 35* Western Mountaineering down bag and 35* JRB down hammock underquilt are both about 21/22 oz each. I also have a 10* UGQ down quilt with an overstuffed footbox that weighs 27oz.

    Down and feathers are probably better than synthetic, weight wise, but I saved my pennies for a long time to buy each of my down items, and am well satisfied with them.
     
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  6. CamoDeafie82

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    The old Hirsch Weiss (company became White Stag) goose down bag I have, has kept me quite toasty down to the low 40s in hammock with the doubled Costco down UQ; it weights about 4.5 lbs total... however the fabric is a bit thicker than the fabric used in my wife's North Face down bag, which is about 3 lbs overall and kept her warm down to about the same with a ccf pad underquilt and a coleman fleece liner.. much of the weight can be attributed to the amount of down, the fabrics, and the zippers they still have.

    I am looking to replace my old modded synthetic Kelty summer quilt, and possibly the USGI Woodland poncho liner which while decently light, doesn't compress all that great for packability.
     
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  7. Moondog55

    Moondog55 Bushmaster

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  8. Jacob

    Jacob Guide

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    That’s a Lot of good information! Sorry I cant contribute anything useful to the thread, just wanted to thank you for throwing this out there.
     
  9. Nightflyer

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    Foe cold weather camping, there are some of us here who like a good point blanket with a Kifaru Doobie over it.
     
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  10. CamoDeafie82

    CamoDeafie82 Guide

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    I get the sentiment, really I do.. but it is not relevant to what I am looking for at this time. I have some wool blankets which helps boost the warmth with the down bag I have for below 40 weather... but the topic of this discussion is...
    A down equivalent or warmer version of a poncho liner.
    I am looking for a 2 season, maybe 3 with layer system, down quilt that packs down smaller than an USGI PL, for same warmth, or better warmth for same weight.

    So far it seems to be the Costco down throw but its a fair bit smaller flat size than PL, the Cicada Wing seems a good specced unit, however its $99 still... no one here has experience with the Amazon PureDown nylon shelled throws?
    I've pretty much given up finding the exact size I want in a down quilt, with the same weight of fill, for less than $99, thats 95% down... short of DIY(and even then, its still gonna be quite a bit more) and hoping for the best :(
     
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  11. Moondog55

    Moondog55 Bushmaster

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    As far as I can tell [ and why I posted that link] there really isn't much around in your preferred budget. There are a lot around but at 3 times the budget.
    I really like the S2S Traveler blankets but I also think they are way overpriced for what you get. I can get a poncho liner into an 8 litre stuff sack and compress it down to 4 or 5, I can get two of the S2S blankets into the same bag so I really see where you are coming from
    https://seatosummit.com/product/traveller-sleeping-bag-tri/
    Naturally enough Western Mountaineering have a very similar blanket that is better, being both lighter and warmer but almost 50% more expensive
    http://www.westernmountaineering.com/sleeping-bags/extremelite-series/everlite/
    Those CostCo down throws are simply amazing value
     
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  12. Nightflyer

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    I understood the topic perfectly. My point was in mentioning the Doobie, which per your reiteration of the topic, is “a down equivalent or warmer version of a poncho liner”, which the Doobie most assuredly is. My apologies for mentioning a point blanket.
     
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  13. CamoDeafie82

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    Looked on Kifaru site.. its still synthetic, and a heart stopping expense compared to the Cicada Wing sleeping bag on Amazon.... holy moly!
     
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  14. Nightflyer

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    They are quite pricey, and they are synthetic, but very, very warm! I prefer it to down as it will still be warm even if it gets a little wet.
     
  15. MJGEGB

    MJGEGB Bushmaster

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    Companies like AEGISMAX offer envelope style down bags for well under $100.

    That said it needs to be asked, what temperature ranges are you planning on using this in?

    Down is a fantastic way to get light and compact insulation. But the construction of the baffles matters just as much as the fill power and weight to area ratio. All of the cheap bags are quilted construction and will never be a good option for anything under 40° at the absolute lowest, 50° being a much safer bet.

    It all depends on the weather you will be using it in and the area you will be using it. In the mountains for example it's not unusual to have massive temperature swings.

    Personally I'd advise you to save a bit longer and take a look at the Economy Burro line from Hammock Gear which are an absolute steal for what they are. They have the option to have a sewn footbox (my recommendation) or one with a drawstring that opens up just like what you are looking for. Personally I like having the footbox because cold feet suck and on hot nights you can just not put your feet inside.

    Even going with a higher temp quilt from HG you will likely end up with a better performing quilt due to the baffled construction. If you've never had the pleasure of sleeping in a cold snap with a quilted down bag let me tell you you can feel every single spot that has a stich holding in inner and outer fabric together, it sucks!
     
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  16. CamoDeafie82

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    I want something to use from 40 to 60 degrees; that packs down smaller than my current old modded Kelty synthetic quilt, but is not as toasty hot as my 70s vintage goose down big guy mummy bag which has baffles... and does pack down pretty small for what it is.. I have used the goose down bag down to the low 30s, high 20s, with the costco down underquilt, wool blend base layers, and stayed pretty comfortablr in the hammock; but its entirely too hot for summer nights where temps are in the mid 40s to 60s....

    If the area I go expects below 40s, I have what works for that, but if its expected to not be that cool, I want something more packable than the current quilt that I have :)
     
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  17. MJGEGB

    MJGEGB Bushmaster

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    Have you tried unzipping the bag and laying it over you quilt style in the warmer weather?

    Generally I'll start the night off with my quilt next to me and pull it on as the weather cools. You can keep your feet out, just pull a corner out, pull up an edge for ventilation and so on.

    This is what I would recommend if you want to get something new that perfectly fits the needs you described.
     
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  18. CamoDeafie82

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    That is what I do in the hammock as opposed to trying to get all the way zipped while in hammock ;)
    have seen that, still not sure its worth the expense at the moment, versus maybe making my own from harvested down from other down items I can get at thrift stores?
     
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  19. MJGEGB

    MJGEGB Bushmaster

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    If you have the ability to make your own then that's certainly an option. I don't, come across down items around here. At best maybe a feather filled pillow that might have a random cluster of down. The cost of materials and labor from what I can tell make the HG quilts an absolute steal.
     
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  20. CamoDeafie82

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    The 2 down bags I have were both thrift store finds :) the one I was going to harvest down from, my wife claimed for camping because it fits her and is toast warm, its a North Face mummy bag from maybe the 80s to 90s?
     
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  21. CamoDeafie82

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    Half a pound (8oz) of 100% goose down, no feathers, 700 fill power, $50 dollars shipped via Ebay... if I decide to go smaller, more minimalist custom quilt design with a foot box, maybe 8oz is all I really need in say roughly 2-3 sq yards of quilt, maximum? 48" max width, 72" max length, 1" baffle heights, no mummy sort of thing (use head covering); and in a hammock, the costco down underquilt, on a pad, a rolled up warm coat as pillow and cap?
     
  22. Glenn Rowe

    Glenn Rowe Supporter Supporter

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    Same here. Combine it with a lightweight hooded down jacket for your topside, and....!

    https://www.wish.com/product/59d5e8...64ihODuv3uwxC3fY5yjBEvyY7CqVXRkUaAtB1EALw_wcB
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2019
  23. Burncycle

    Burncycle Scout

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    Aegismax envelope style sleeping bag, washed with nixwax down proof. Less than $100

    Can open up like a blanket / woobie, can zip up into a sleeping bag, used as is as a peapod for hammockers, or modified into an underquilt. Would be a good alternative to the much much more expensive Sea to Summit Micro series for general purpose / warmer months.

    Well put together review (English subtitles available)

    )
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019
  24. CamoDeafie82

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    Looked up the aegismax stuff, seems their cheapest, the SP1 envelope bag at $74 has 90% duck down, 10% feather, 208 grams of fill, 600 fill power... it does seem that to get more fill power/warmer/lighter, prices go up by 25-30 ish depending on company....... and its practically a wash if I order half a pound of 700fp down (226 grams) at $50 shipped; plus about $40 in fabric without shipping... and thats not counting my time and effort... hmm.

    Edit; or I can pass the Kelty summer quilt to my wife along with the poncho liner and coleman fleece envelope liner and cannibalize the red down bag from the North Face
     
  25. Moondog55

    Moondog55 Bushmaster

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    If you are going to make your own I think it would be a mistake to spend a lot of time doing all the lay-out and sewing and not use the very best quality down. It is counter intuitive but there is a lot more work sewing up a LW warm weather item than one for colder conditions; because of the way down flows like water under certain circumstances a warm weather quilt or blanket needs many more, much smaller channels, say every 2 inches to control the very small amount of down needed to give an average of an inch of loft. Chinese factories have such LW down sleeping bags and jackets/pants designed and made very well indeed and while factory workers in China are paid less than in the West it isn't that much less in real terms, they just have the benefit of making millions of these these things each year. Don't forget that synthetic insulations are equal to 550FP down, and the longevity issue with Climasheild APEX and Primaloft Gold is constantly improving and either is much much better than the stuff used in issue woobies as far as warmth per ounce is concerned. Far more important than almost everything at this level is getting the most windproof fabric for the outer shell, I chose to spend a lot extra for 0.7 Robic shell because it is windproof due to the very thin urethane coating; still breathable as far as vapour transmission is concerned and it has a 900mm head water resistance. Mine is an overquilt but the same design procedure in involved. If I was in the market I would be buying the Chinese product; local feedback on the envelope style is positive. Perhaps the best of both worlds is a synthetic over an UL down until it gets close to freezing although I am in a sleeping bag well above that
     
  26. CamoDeafie82

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    Yeah; like I was saying, with just 8 oz of 700FP down, and the cost of good fabrics from Ripstop By The Roll, being about $90 plus my time and efforts, NatureHike's envelope style 1.28lb 800 fill sleeping bag at $99 with free ship sure seems to be a better deal, and seems to be much warmer, a 3 season unit..
     
  27. Moondog55

    Moondog55 Bushmaster

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    A down hood to fit that would be an excellent DIY project
     
  28. CamoDeafie82

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    Well on one hand, the measurments seems a bit narrow if used as a sleeping bag, for me personally; hence the use as a quilt idea, even with partial foot box... a down reversed hood with mummy style face hole could work better?
     
  29. Moondog55

    Moondog55 Bushmaster

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    Actually I was thinking it would work better as a warm poncho with a hood
     
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