Florida Airgun Hunt (.357 airgun using pellets)

Discussion in 'Hunting, Fishing & Gathering' started by Florida Bullfrog, Feb 27, 2019.

  1. Florida Bullfrog

    Florida Bullfrog Tracker

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2015
    Messages:
    158
    Likes Received:
    464


    The pellet was flying about 900fps out the muzzle, shot distance was 60 yards. Complete pass thru except for being caught under the skin on the far side after shooting thru the far shoulder blade.
     
    bumma, JeffG, field-expedient and 9 others like this.
  2. Paulyseggs

    Paulyseggs Supporter Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2018
    Messages:
    3,254
    Likes Received:
    13,466
    Location:
    CT.
    Man pellet guns have come along way!
     
  3. merlinfire

    merlinfire Supporter Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2012
    Messages:
    238
    Likes Received:
    633
    Location:
    SW Ohio
    this ain't your grandpa's daisy pump lol
     
    werewolf won, Sosteve and Paulyseggs like this.
  4. Paulyseggs

    Paulyseggs Supporter Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2018
    Messages:
    3,254
    Likes Received:
    13,466
    Location:
    CT.
    PY-2057_Daisy-Model-25-PumpAction_1467216654.jpg that would be this one

    And it was grandma's:3:
     
  5. Sosteve

    Sosteve Scout

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2018
    Messages:
    486
    Likes Received:
    1,694
    Lol,yep they did
     
  6. Moe M.

    Moe M. Supporter Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2011
    Messages:
    3,780
    Likes Received:
    5,423
    Location:
    Southern MA.
    Just my opinion of course (everyone has one :34:), Air guns really have come a long way, my first one was at about age 7, just like the Daisy pump pictured a few posts ^, used it to shoot big old grasshoppers in the summer, great sport for a young kid with a "real" gun.
    Since then I've done a lot of hunting for bigger game like Deer, Black Bear, and wild Boar all over the North East from PA. to Canada, I seen a lot of animals die slow painful deaths because of people using under powered guns, bows, and traps, or because they couldn't shoot well enough to place the shot where it needed to go, it might piss some folks off, but if you can't kill an animal in it's tracks quickly enough to have it not suffer you shouldn't be hunting.
    Again, IMHO and in my experience hunting a deer sized animal with an 80 grn. pellet going 900fps is just plain unethical, in the video that animal didn't die quickly, it was hit, ran around in confusion, fell and thrashed about for a short period of time suffering before it expired, and that is not right in my book.
    I can understand that not all shots are going to be instant kills or present themselves perfectly, shit happens occasionally, but intentionally shooting an animal with an under powered gun and ammo combination just to prove a point, knowing that the potential for that animal suffering before it finally dies should be unacceptable to most ethical hunters.

    I'm not posting this to start a shit storm or be insulting to anyone, it's simply intended to give people something to think about before they act on impulse.
     
  7. werewolf won

    werewolf won TANSTAAFL Supporter Bushcraft Friend

    Blog Posts:
    17
    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2010
    Messages:
    15,552
    Likes Received:
    29,869
    Air guns kill by blood loss not huge would channels. It’s pretty common for animals to hardly realize they’ve been hit finally start stumbling and finally drop. That deer’s reaction is pretty typical of a well shot animal. I've seen human die of blood loss, it's not that bad a way to go compared to some of the others I've witnessed.

    I’ve also seen animals with heart and lung shots run significantly long distances after taking a heavy caliber round in the boiler room. Unless you spine them they usually are going to move. Even if you brain them a lot of reflexive thrashing is not unusual.
     
    bumma, Wasp, CSM1970 and 3 others like this.
  8. Primordial

    Primordial MOA #40 Supporter Bushcraft Friend

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2017
    Messages:
    5,173
    Likes Received:
    41,105
    Location:
    Upper Great Lakes
    Not sure what you seen, but I seen a quick, clean, ethical kill. It died in seconds after the shot...I have deer run on their feet just as long after being lung shot with a 3o-06. All my archery kills except for 2 deer covered way more ground/time before dying. I shot a large doe at 15 yards with a .54 Hawken it acted almost the same way as that doe. It was hit, jumped ran 20 yards got wobbly and tipped over.

    Do all of the deer and game you have shot drop on the spot?
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2019
  9. field-expedient

    field-expedient Misfit Bushclass II

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2013
    Messages:
    3,234
    Likes Received:
    19,243
    Wow quick clean kill there! Pretty neat, I would like to give one a try but I imagine those airguns cost more than my hunting rifle did so probably wont get a chance.

    Ethical? Whats ethical? Is it a couch potato riding around on 20 thousand dollar atv with a 300 mag? I really don't care what someone hunts with. If you want to hunt a buffalo with blowgun that's your gig, none of my business, if you got the skills go for it.
     
    Wasp and CSM1970 like this.
  10. Moe M.

    Moe M. Supporter Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2011
    Messages:
    3,780
    Likes Received:
    5,423
    Location:
    Southern MA.
    No, not all my shots have resulted in clean instant kills, I've tracked my share of blood trails, I did mention in my post that I know and understand that not all shots are going to be perfect, not all animals are going to drop dead the moment they are hit, it's a part of hunting we have all dealt with.
    But, it's what we as ethical hunters should be striving for when we go out hunting and even at the moment we take the shot, most considerations are usually automatic, most of us subconsciously look for the opening, judge the range, wait for the right shot that will be certain to hit in the vitals, and we should be using arms suited for the size of the game.
    My deer/bear guns in the NE states that allow rifles are .30 cal. traveling at least 2000fps. or more with the exception of my .270 Win. or my .54 Cal. muzzle loaders, in MA. and RI. it's a 12ga. using slugs.
    I'd no sooner go deer hunting with a pellet gun using an 80 grn. pellet at 900 fps. than I would hunting deer with a 26LB. pull target bow using field point arrows, that was my only point, just because we can do something doesn't make it right, many years ago an Alaskan native girl killed a huge brown bear with an old single shot .22RF. rifle, scared to death she kept reloading and shooting at point blank range, so we know the little .22RF LR barely breaking 1050 fps. can kill but few of us are foolish enough to give it a try.

    And Thanks for being civil in your reply, I fully expected to get my tail stepped on. :dblthumb:
     
    werewolf won and Primordial like this.
  11. field-expedient

    field-expedient Misfit Bushclass II

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2013
    Messages:
    3,234
    Likes Received:
    19,243
    Hunting also needs to be thrilling and a challenge for some of us, or its just killing stuff. Some folks aren't as fulfilled using high powered rifles.
     
    CSM1970 and Primordial like this.
  12. werewolf won

    werewolf won TANSTAAFL Supporter Bushcraft Friend

    Blog Posts:
    17
    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2010
    Messages:
    15,552
    Likes Received:
    29,869
    You need to spend some trigger time with one of these new high powered big bore air rifles—you’ll come away with a new feeling about them. They are really like nothing you’ve experienced before. It’s even a big step from a once considered big bore .25 caliber PCP to the new .357’s.
     
    Wasp and Primordial like this.
  13. Primordial

    Primordial MOA #40 Supporter Bushcraft Friend

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2017
    Messages:
    5,173
    Likes Received:
    41,105
    Location:
    Upper Great Lakes
    I've been into airguns for years and the last decade has shown huge leaps and bounds in potential. I seen some guns shown at the German version of Shot Show that would blow American's minds. These guns are built like Swiss watches and the power and accuracy are amazing...but like @field-expedient said, even the basic big bores cost as much as whole budget scoped center fire rifle package that can shoot MOA with factory ammo all day long. Also I'm leery about longevity and repair work issues if these hunting air guns ever break down. You just can't find any old gunsmith to work on them. Plus I'm not sure how well they work in a cold climate. All three of those issues are negatives to me...but damn, they sure are cool!
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2019 at 8:48 AM
    werewolf won and field-expedient like this.
  14. Birdman

    Birdman Guide

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2014
    Messages:
    2,505
    Likes Received:
    7,876
    Location:
    NW Oregon
    I get where you're coming from. Just looking at numbers, that 81 grain pellet at 900fps is only making 146ft/lbs of energy. Thats 52% less energy than a 50gr .22wmr(300ft/lb). Thats pretty low on the totem pole, if you ask me. Now, with that said. He's essentially getting a complete pass through with a .357 slug, so "under powered" or not, the pellet has done exactly what it needs to do. Would I try that? Nope... I'll be sticking to centerfire arms for med and big game hunting, but good on that fella for getting it done with an airgun.
     
    werewolf won likes this.
  15. Florida Bullfrog

    Florida Bullfrog Tracker

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2015
    Messages:
    158
    Likes Received:
    464
    There's a lot to answer, I'll try not to be wordy, although its hard for me to be concise about airguns because I'm so passionate about them. I got into PCP airguns about a decade ago in order to have a quiet gun without going thru the hassle of getting a registered firearm suppressor. My first was a Benjamin Marauder in .25, and I ended up learning how to modify the gun to have more than twice the advertised power. After that I was hooked. I was one of a few dedicated air gunners that worked to get airgun hunting of large game legalized in Florida (remember "large" is relative to us, as a mature whitetail buck usually runs around 125lbs here).

    I believe that the best way to think of an airgun's killing power is to put aside the notion that its like a firearm and instead think of it like a crossbow. The energy levels are about the same, while the airgun has flatter trajectory and a bit longer comfortable effective range. An airgun's projectile is like a broadhead, except where an arrow's broadhead is a configuration of blades, an airgun's broadhead is an expanding bullet that tears thru tissue with lead fingers, or alternatively, is a pellet's sharp skirt that cuts a circular hole as it passes. Although a broadhead may have a wider reach depending on blade width, the airgun round is cutting a 360 degree hole. Its a lot like running a spinning drill bit thru your target, and in the case of an expanding airgun round like a hp bullet, its like a drill bit or broadhead that opens up inside the target.

    In fact, when compared side to side at the same subsonic velocities and weights, an airgun's bullet is usually going to outperform a firearm's bullet. Why? Because firearm bullets are usually copper jacketed or coated and are made to expand at higher velocities. When fired at low velocities, they don't expand right. Firearm rounds have to be so built in order to deal with the high heat generated from the shot. Lead melts around 620F. A firearm bullet is around 500F give or take in flight. When it hits, up to 60% of a bullet's energy becomes more heat, which can and often does melt the lead inside the bullet. That's why some bullets seem to vaporize inside of tissue when they expand. Thus, firearms cannot handle mostly soft lead bullets without some sort of shell or protection, unless dealing with low power loads like some rimfires and black powder.

    Airgun rounds are made of mostly pure lead with varying amounts of tin and antimony added to control expansion. An airgun round of mostly lead will fully expand at or a bit less than 800fps. That means that you'll get much more expansion out of an airgun round at velocities at which a firearm round won't begin to expand.

    Now in this video, the pellet was made of a hard alloy and didn't expand at all. In that case, it kept its hard skirt at the base and it was that skirt that cut the wound channel. Had I been using a softer pellet, I do not believe the cut would have been so surgical. It would have performed more like a .357 roundball and it would have expended some of its energy in expansion and perhaps wouldn't have shot thru to the skin on the other side. For deer hunting, I absolutely want to either use a hard skirted pellet, or a heavy expanding bullet. I do not want to use something in between that neither expands nor holds it form enough to cut.

    All of that being said, I watched another hunter kill a deer with his .308 airgun on my farm this past fall and he shot it quartering towards at 50 yards. The .308 airgun bullet, somewhere in the upper to mid 900fps range, shot thru the front shoulder, into the heart, and out the other side clean thru. The deer ran 50 yards and died with a good blood trail. Because he ran to my blueberry field, I couldn't tell you if he stood and looked around like this doe did or whether he ran until he dropped. If the latter, he would have had to have dropped quick to only make it 50 yards. The wound channel on that deer was about the size of a walnut inside the body cavity and full of gelatin (which I've always heard called "blood shot", but I don't know what others call it when a bullet gelatinizes tissue in a wound channel). The airgun bullet really shouldn't have had the energy to gelatinize the tissue like it did. But it did. I don't think I or another experienced rifle hunter could have discerned that wound channel from a .308 firearm's wound channel, even thought the .308 firearm has several times the energy.

    What does that mean? I have no idea. Is much of what we think we know about terminal ballistics and the importance of energy, wrong? Maybe. That would also mean that perhaps I'm wrong when I say airguns perform like bows. Maybe thru their ease of expansion, airguns can perform just like firearms on a fraction of the energy?

    What I do know is that airgun are up to the task of killing deer, whether its because they perform like bows or like firearms.

    Price. Yes, they can be expensive. A person can have a decent .25 appropriate for game up to bobcat size on lung shots and hog sized on brain shots for under $300. But the big ones you'd want to use for lung shooting deer at distance start around $500-$600 and regularly run up to $1,200, while some high-grade ones run to $2,400 to $3,000. The one in this video is Korean made and cost me under $600. If I was to buy it over again now, I'd get the Winchester version of this gun called the 70-35, which is made in Korea but branded under Winchester. If money is no object, I recommend one of the $1,100 American made airguns for an all-purpose airgun.

    Maintenance depends on the individual model. All of my heavy duty airguns I can service on my own. Only my cheapest ones I'm not sure if I can service them, because up to this point I haven't had to. Some airguns have complicated firing or magazine indexing systems, others do not. Orings and Allen wrenches are all you need to service most of them. Slow leaks from the air tube or a leaky breach are the problems most people will encounter at some point or another, and those are fixed thru oring replacement.
     
    werewolf won and Birdman like this.
  16. Florida Bullfrog

    Florida Bullfrog Tracker

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2015
    Messages:
    158
    Likes Received:
    464
    Here's a selection of airgun rounds fired into clay at 50 yards, with impact velocities on all of them being at or under 800fps:

    [​IMG]

    From left to right, that a 218 gr .45 HP, a 98 gr .308 HP, a 60 gr .300 HP, and a 45 gr ballistic tip pellet.

    When impact velocity is higher, around 850-900fps and up, the airgun rounds fragment and "explode" while only retaining the very base of the round.

    I have that pellet I cut out of the deer's skin somewhere. It was perfectly intact except for 2 scratches on the head from where it when thru rib or shoulder blade. I have yet to recover an airgun bullet from a deer. They all shoot clean thru.
     
  17. Loosearrow

    Loosearrow Scout

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2011
    Messages:
    734
    Likes Received:
    180
    Location:
    Kansas
    Lewis and Clark had an air rifle on their expedition.
     
  18. boomchakabowwow

    boomchakabowwow Guide

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2015
    Messages:
    3,579
    Likes Received:
    4,624
    Location:
    Bay Area, California
    Very cool. That thing was dead and didn’t know it.

    It was very similar to a clean bowkill.

    I have a 22 PCP. I’m cursed with the inability to kill a turkey with it. I get so nervous! It’s like being a rookie again. I love it. Two more weeks and spring turkey season is here.
     
  19. Wasp

    Wasp We are GO for Sting! Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2014
    Messages:
    11,452
    Likes Received:
    49,260
    Location:
    Arkansas
    Looks like a good kill to me. Nice shooting.
     

Share This Page