Forced Patina Opinions

Discussion in 'Edged Tools' started by HeavyMetals9, Sep 11, 2012.

  1. HeavyMetals9

    HeavyMetals9 Tracker

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    I just bought a BK2 from Hugins, havnt received it yet but he had stripped the black coating and put a forced patina on it. Im new to this and have done some research and watched vids on youtube but would like some of your opinions on this. Do you do it? Do you believe it helps or just for looks? I have to say I do like some of the designs Ive seen. Does it require resharpening or reshaping the blade afterward? If it doesnt turn out to my liking can it be polished out and done over again. Thanx.
     
  2. briarbrow

    briarbrow Banned Member Banned

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    the fp will polish off far easier than the original finish and protect it less as well. I guess a light, weak acid patina affords some protection but I cant say how much as I never get much rusting anyway. I have only done it for looks, just to knock the shine off. Some tout acid-sharpening. I believe it so little i have never bothered to check to see what may have been gained of lost with acid etching
     
  3. tsacain

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    If I am restoring an axe or knife and completely strip it with vinegar I patina the blade. It does help, since it is a form of corrosion. It will help to stop carbon steel from rusting. I think it looks pretty cool also, so that is an added bonus.
    For your question about resharpening I keep all of my edges polished sharp. So there is no patina on the edge. This will happen just by you keeping your BK2 sharp.
    You could remove the patina with sand paper or vinegar but I would just leave it. It keeps the blade from rusting.
     
  4. DeriusT

    DeriusT Scout

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    I'm one of those weirdos who doesn't patina my carbon steel. I like to keep it bare and well rubbed with tallow. However, my brother has used boiled apple cider vinegar and gotten some heavy black patinas that seem to hold up well.
     
  5. RangerJoe

    RangerJoe Bushwhacker Bushclass II

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    Personally, I would just let it patina naturally
     
  6. HeavyMetals9

    HeavyMetals9 Tracker

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    Thanx all. Im anxious to get my BK2 and check it out. Some of the patinas Ive seen look similar to a damascus look. I dig it. I never knew you could force a patina. Another reason I love BCUSA. Im going to try it on some other knives myself. Ive seen some vids that say you can use mustard, vinegar, potatoes and citrus fruits. And the tiger striping is kinda cool but wondering which would give the best results? Which works for a dark patina as opposed to a lighter grey?
     
  7. HeavyMetals9

    HeavyMetals9 Tracker

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    Ive never been a big fan of blacked out blades. I usually prefer satin or polished and some stonewashed blades look decent. Thats why I was asking if a knife that has had a forced patina could be polished back out, in the case of getting a used knife thats had it done already or if I try it and dont like how it turned out.
     
  8. Niflreika

    Niflreika Guide

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    The more acidic the chemical used, the darker the patina.

    Vinegar leaves a light grey patina on the steels I've used it on. Citrus juices leave a darker patina. Mustard is nice because you can put it on in laces you want (BTW it's the areas of LIGHT coverage with mustard that patina). So mustard and/or cold bluing paste would be my choice for designs like pseudo damascus.

    I look at it two ways:

    If you are prone to getting rust on metal objects in your area and pattern of use, a forced patina will help protect the metal. If you just want to protect the blade while letting it develop character on its own, a vinegar patina will give a light grey look, and natural use will rub some of it off, other things will get on it and make it darker in areas, and a natural aged look will result.

    If you just just want it to look aged but isn't rust prone in your area, just use the hell out of it and it'll patina on its own.
     
  9. dhunley1

    dhunley1 Scout

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    A patina will definitely provide protection and also looks nice IMO.

    My ESEE-4 was done with vinegar.

    [​IMG]

    BHK Bushbaby done with mustard.

    [​IMG]
     
  10. PUGLIA

    PUGLIA Tracker

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    Hunley, how long did you leave that in the vinegar?
     
  11. martin_j001

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    Hey, I recognize that Esee 4. ;)

    Here's a few I've done in the past, including dhunley1's 4. Btw, PUGLIA, I believe I let it soak for just an hour or two at most...that knife "took the color" better than some others I've given the same treatment in the past.

    An Izula I did for a customer: etched, stripped, vinegar patina
    [​IMG]

    An Esee 3 I did, same treatment as above.
    [​IMG]

    Some playing around I've done with my own knives....

    Testing out a quick application of etching solution along the top edge (nearest the spine)
    [​IMG]

    My Esee 3: etched, stripped, and patina'd with a vinegar paper towel/ketchup wrap, and then used in the kitchen a lot
    [​IMG]

    My own Esee Candiru that I etched, stripped and gave a vinegar bath, polished lightly after:
    [​IMG]

    My Izula and Candiru freshly etched, stripped and patina'd with a vinegar soak (Candiru) or a paper towel/vinegar wrap (Izula)
    [​IMG]
     
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  12. dhunley1

    dhunley1 Scout

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    martin_j001 actually did it for me. He responded just above.
     
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  13. Bjorno

    Bjorno Scout

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    Question about this ESEE 4 - Is the ESEE logo etched underneath the protective coating they put on the blade? or did you etch that in yourself?

    I would like to do this with my ESEE-3, but I don't want to lose the serial number.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2012
  14. martin_j001

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    As the guy who did the work on dhunley1's knife, I can tell you. :) The logos are visible on a stock Esee knife by the lack of blade coating, so I etched the logo first, and then stripped the finish off. If you try to just strip the finish, you will have little to no logo left, and etching it at that point will do much more damage to the knife than anything else.
     
  15. dhunley1

    dhunley1 Scout

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    ^ What he said. ^

     
  16. HeavyMetals9

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    hunley, I really like how dark the Esee turned out with vinegar. So you just soak it in a "bowl" of vinegar or do you have to use a cloth or paper towel? Also the Bushbaby with the mustard treatment is sick. Thats the damascus look I was referring to. But thats the part I dont get. Do you just "swirl" the mustard on the blade and leave it set? How long? Or is there another technique for the mustard? Just plain ol' mustard? Generic or premium? Sorry guys but Im very intrigued by this.
     
  17. HeavyMetals9

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    martin, how do you etch the Esee symbols on the blade and get them to look factory?
     
  18. dhunley1

    dhunley1 Scout

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    I'll let martin_j001 answer your questions in regards to the ESEE since he did it. As far as the mustard patina on the BHK, I just used plain yellow mustard. I swirled it on and let it sit for about 15-20 minutes and rinsed it off. I'm really happy with how it turned out.
     
  19. martin_j001

    martin_j001 Tracker

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    As for dhunley1's 4, I used a 2L coke bottle with the top cut off to be able to submerge the whole thing all at one time.

    I used PCB etchant from Radio Shack. I apply it with a syringe (no needle) only to where I need it. The etchant will eat away at any bare metal, so I tape over edges to be safe. Here's a pic showing my etching setup


    [​IMG]
     
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  20. wasatchdan

    wasatchdan Scout

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    When I first got my BK-2 I gave it a patina using a base coat of A-1 steak sauce, followed by striping it with brown mustard. Here's how it looked right after.

    [​IMG]

    Here's how it looks now, after 8 months, a razor-sharp Fisked edge, micarta scales, and several campouts later.

    [​IMG]

    The patina has held up well. No rust at all. I've thought about redoing it, but I kind of like how it's aging.
     
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  21. HeavyMetals9

    HeavyMetals9 Tracker

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    wasatchdan, that BK2 looks great! I really like how that turned out as well. Thats exactly what I would like to try on mine when it arrives.

    I want to try this on some of my knives now but Im not sure what knives it will work on. At this point in time I dont have any of the knives Ive seen this done too. This will be my first BK, when I get it, and hugins has already done the FP. Thats why I asked if it can be redone and would I have to polish it out first.

    I understand that it has to be a high carbon steel but cannot be a stainless steel right? Can you give me some examples of lower cost knives this would work on? CS Bushman? SOG Seal Pup? Kershaws? Bucks? etc... Ive seen some of these knives selling for hundreds of dollars and I just cant afford that at this time.
     
  22. wasatchdan

    wasatchdan Scout

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    Yeah, you can easily sand off a regular vinegar/bbq sauce/mustard, etc patina. But something like a blue/bleach or PCB etch, on the other hand, is permanent. I've done a few of these. They look cool, but you can't change them once they're done.

    You can patina or etch the carbon steel Moras. My Companion has a nice steak and chicken patina going right now. Anything carbon steel. If you want a bigger, inexpensive knife to practice on, the Cold Steel GI tanto can be had for $25.

    Here's what some of my etched knives look like for comparison with the regular patina.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2012
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  23. Airth

    Airth Scout

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    Forcing a patina is essentially an acid etch. Those who use mustard (or other condiments) are relying on the vinegar content to do the work. A way you can cut to the chase is just use nitric acid...it's sold in Radio Shack as a circuit board etch. Last time I bought some, a half pint was $13.00, and I still have about that much left since it doesn't take much. It's a strong acid, so use the necessary precautions and be sure to test an area to get your etch timing down. Too much time in nitric acid will make your blade do a disappearing act :)

    There are two ways I've used it to produce a good etch...using paint as a mask, and a plain ol' Sharpie marker.

    The first method takes time, but you get much crisper results. It seems counter-intuitive, but after stripping off the factory finish, wipe the surface down with alcohol, let dry, and spray paint it in an even coat of flat black. Then, use a pencil to draw on your design, or a burnishing tool to transfer a traced design to your work. Then you can use an awl (or nail, or anything with a fine, sharp point) to scratch the design into the paint, exposing the bare metal beneath. Conversely, you can scratch away all the paint except the design for a reverse effect. Once you're satisfied, "soak" the piece in nitric...warming up the acid accelerates the process somewhat. For carbon steel, I typically get good results at 30 mins, but if your design edges are clean you can let it go a bit for a very deep, refined etch. Once you're happy with it, run the work under hot, soapy water to neutralize it...the paint mask should just flake off at this point. If not, a run under a buffer will take care of it. Obviously this can take some time, but the end result is well worth it.

    The other method, and my favorite because of the character it gives the work, is simply using a black Sharpie marker. Just draw on a design free-hand, whatever you want. If you mess up or want to change it, use a dry-erase marker over the Sharpie ink to make it wet just long enough to wipe off. In this way, the Sharpie ink becomes your mask. Since the thickness of the ink and the edges will vary as you draw, it will be enhanced in the finished piece--a very good method if you want to artificially antique anything. Give it the acid bath, neutralize and scrub as before, and you have some impressive results. You can also layer designs this way, making subsequent etches deeper--the key is to just experiment.

    Again, since this is a strong acid, you must use all precautions...splash goggles, gloves, etc. It's also important to experiment either on scrap or an unseen part of whatever you're working on. Not leaving something in the etchant is annoying, while leaving it too long can be disastrous.
     
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  24. HeavyMetals9

    HeavyMetals9 Tracker

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    Thanx for all the help fellas. I cant wait to get started on my own project and I will post some pics of course. Time is nota friend of mine these days but may be a good winter project as things start to slow down.
     
  25. Boroffski

    Boroffski Scout

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    I did a tomato patina on my mora, and it turned out really nice, but decided to let nature run it's course on my BK2. Walnut scales, a good leather sheath and mineral oil are my rust preventitive measures.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
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  26. Schwert

    Schwert Guide

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    [​IMG]

    This Case CV blade has built up a semi-natural patina from slicing my lunch vegetables, fruits and meats...but I have found another interesting patina maker...

    I generally slice up whatever I am having for lunch...

    [​IMG]

    Then I dunk the blade in my lunch time tea mug for a couple seconds to remove the sticky juice...hot tea seems to very quickly add to the patina on this Case CV...
     
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  27. HeavyMetals9

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    Boroffski, I really like those scales on the BK2. If you dont mind, where did you get those and how much does something like those run?
     
  28. Boroffski

    Boroffski Scout

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    I got them for $40 from ebay, a lil shaping/sanding and a mineral oil rubdown, and they are perfect. They were made from recycled walnut flooring and came oversized and somewhat rough. Some would not like paying $40 and then putting an hours work into them, but I enoyed it and they turned out great.

    Heres a link to the sellers page(not me, I only buy from ebay) http://myworld.ebay.com/tmil2009?_trksid=p2047675.l2559


    EDIT
    I must give a plug to Skystorm Leather for the sheath and firesteel while I'm at it. Also ebay.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2012
  29. zippydapanhead

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    A strong second on the apple cider vinegar boil technique.
     
  30. HeavyMetals9

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    Do you put the blade directly in the boiling vinegar? or boiling hot in some sort of container? How long for a nice dark patina? Any pics of finished product?
     
  31. DirtNap

    DirtNap Scout

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    My wife did one of my Keppies with Love.......and a mix of mustard/cider vinegar :)

    [​IMG]
     
  32. wasatchdan

    wasatchdan Scout

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    Big thumbs up to Tommythewho and Skystorm. I've got several products from both men, and they are excellent.
     
  33. HeavyMetals9

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    I just thought of a knife I want to do this on but I need some advise. It is a custom made knife made from a file. I left it in the leather sheath and it starter to rust a bit, just some surface rust. It has a crown deer stag handle, burnt stag. If I decide on the boiling cider vinegar or an other method, how can I protect the stag handle? I may try to do it this weekend and post some pics.
     
  34. HeavyMetals9

    HeavyMetals9 Tracker

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    Bump with one last question... Please see above
     
  35. wasatchdan

    wasatchdan Scout

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    I'd try wrapping it in a zip lock secured with blue tape or something and then suspending the knife over the vinegar rather than submerging the whole thing.
     
  36. BushbobCT

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    I just got done doing a forced Vinegar Patina on my BK2 but after reading the comments above I might try the boiled method for a darker finish.
    100_2001.jpg 100_2003.jpg
     
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  37. stanley_white

    stanley_white Tracker

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    I soak my entire knife overnight in lemon juice.

    If not overnight, then for a minimum of three hours.

    -Stan
     
  38. HeavyMetals9

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    Does that give a nice dark patina?
     
  39. Kevinthewise

    Kevinthewise Scout

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    I like doing it because if i don't like it i can buff it out, and it does protect the blade to a certain extent from bad rust. Typically it only requires me to strop my knife after i have put a patina on it. Oh and this is only effective on Carbon steel blades. And sometimes i let the patina form naturally by cutting acidic food such as tomatoes, pineapple, bananas, onions and potatoes.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2012
  40. DeriusT

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    He always took the scales off and submerged the entire blade into the boiling vinegar. Took it off after a few minutes, and let it soak till the desired color was achieved. It gives a very, very dark solid black patina that wears well.
     
  41. stanley_white

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    It generally does a dark gray color.

    One forged O-1 knife it turned a mirror-like black.

    I just did one with a knife in S-7 steel and it turned out a light gray.

    My non-scientific experiences seem to point to higher carbon content plus longer soak equals darker color.

    -Stan
     
  42. demonslaer

    demonslaer Scout

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    [​IMG] mustard patina 4 hour set time
     
  43. battle.munky

    battle.munky Guide

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    I forced patina on my BK 2 and Mora Companion with fresh lemon, Sriracha, and yellow mustard. A big hodgepodge of acidic crud. Came out nice. I must've missed a spot though, I noticed a line of rust on the "BK2" side where the grind meets the handle.

    Photobucket isn't working, sorry for the small thumbnails.

    forced patina2.jpg forced patina1.jpg forced patina3.jpg forced patina4.jpg
     
  44. HeavyMetals9

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    demonslaer, that blade is sick! I really like that. Turned out very unique. I just want to say THANX AGAIN to all you helpful folks. I cant wait to try this.
     
  45. Dutchman

    Dutchman SDO Proud. Bushclass I

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    I tried the white vinegar patina on a stripped BK10 and my ML Knives kephart by soaking paper towels in vinegar and wrapping the blades with them for about 15-20 minutes. This morning when I checked on them both blades had ugly rust areas along with the patina. What did I do wrong?
     
  46. martin_j001

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    When you say ugly rust I assume you mean a reddish color rust, yes? If so, just lightly rub/sand that off and continue with the vinegar wrap. I'm guessing that means its reacting to the presence of liquid without the protection of a patina yet. I've seen that a time or two and just kept going with the patina, then when I lightly scrub/sand to get any loose rust off that's what comes off first.

    I started a patina on my Woodcrafter this morning while making bacon. Mmmmm....bacon.
    [​IMG]
     
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  47. BobFLA

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    demonslaer...WOW!!!
    Nice patena job!

    I had tiger stripes on my blade, but yours has...depth and character.

    Best regards
    Bob
     
  48. martin_j001

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    After about 15 minutes with vinegar soaked paper towel...

    [​IMG]
     
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  49. Kentucky

    Kentucky Guide

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    The bleach and cold blue method wroks very well..If you time it right you can get different looks and surface texture not just color. Though it a permanent change, it wont wear off like vinegar etches will..
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2012
  50. demonslaer

    demonslaer Scout

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    thanks for the kind words. that was the 1st knife I've done .
     

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