How to hold your weapon?

Discussion in 'Firearms' started by Knifeguy510, Jun 27, 2019.

  1. Knifeguy510

    Knifeguy510 Scout

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    So as many of y'all know I'm still finding my way with shooting. There is a guy at my range who is an instructor. He says he does not care for the thumbs forward combat grip. He likes the Israeli style Wich is what I called it cause I watched a YouTube vid with an ex Israeli special forces guy in it . But he says it's not Israeli it's just a pistol grip. I have tried that grip even with semi autos the revolver type grip and I really think I do better that way . Is there many of y'all who do subscribe to the thumbs forward grip? I'm just interested to know how many of y'all hold your pistols that way.
     
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  2. central joe

    central joe Wait For Me!! Supporter Bushcraft Friend

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    Don't worry bout how ya should do it. Try several grips and use the one that fells most comfortable to you. Sometimes I change my grip with different brands. joe
     
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  3. GreyOne

    GreyOne Elder Lifetime Supporter

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    Thumbs forward works well. The variability in grip sizes and angles with the differences in hand size and shape means no single grip is right for everyone. Instructors who teach a single grip are usually lacking in experience, egoists, and not too bright.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2019
  4. Turtle Creek

    Turtle Creek Guide

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    Watch any drug dealer movie. Study the one arm elevated with a bent elbow, weapon pointed slightly down , side way grip stance. Try it once for nostalgia ... the get back to reality
     
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  5. PAcanis

    PAcanis Supporter Supporter

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    If there is anything two gun guys can agree on, it's that the third guy is doing it wrong.
     
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  6. Knifeguy510

    Knifeguy510 Scout

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    I have noticed that there are some guns where the traditional sorta revolver grip works and there are some where thumbs forward work better. 1911s don't really work well for the thumbs forward grip IMHO. There is not enough realestate below the slid for my thumb.
     
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  7. Knifeguy510

    Knifeguy510 Scout

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    That's funny ! Lol
     
  8. TAHAWK

    TAHAWK Guide

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    'Da Gangsta Grip. :dblthumb:
     
  9. Wasp

    Wasp DOWN IN DIXIE Supporter

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    Mine is basically thumbs forward. I was doing it before people started naming grips or at least before they were right or wrong and mainstream.
    I don't do thumbs forward on a revolver.
    As long as you find what works well, is fast enough that you don't have to readjust and look at it every time, and you are consistent after finding it.....and you aren't tea cupping it or holding it sideways you're probably all right.

    Shoot more and ask fewer questions.
     
  10. Zaveral

    Zaveral Supporter Supporter Bushcraft Friend

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    I prefer the thumbs forward grip, though on the Glock my thumb rides on the slide release. On the 1911 the thumb always rides on top of the safety. The most important thing on the semi auto pistol is to get both hands as high on the grip as possible.
     
  11. Andy in NH

    Andy in NH Scout

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    Get some real training from a reputable instructor (not the local range guy) or from one of the big shooting schools.
     
  12. chesterpulley

    chesterpulley Scout

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    Whatever works best for you is the bottom line. My brother's grip is atrocious looking but he shoots well. Also, no one grip works for all types of shooting or all types of guns. Same with where you index your finger on the trigger.

    I've actually studied the subject in a bit of detail over the years and found a fair amount in print from the likes of Keith, Askins and Hatcher, though they were all primarily revolver guys and predate the thumbs forward grip. Hatcher was also almost exclusively a Bullseye shooter, but worth looking up if that interests you.

    The "Israeli Grip" looks to me like a modification of the traditional two-handed DA revolver grip without the thumbs being bent downward. Watching the video demo of the "locking feature", for lack of a better term, you can "lock" the two hand thumbs forward grip by rotating the heel of your support hand downward to provide some tension as well.

    Regarding the 1911 not having enough room for thumbs forward, assuming you're right handed, are you leaving your thumb to ride on top of the safety? With your RH thumb atop the safety there's sufficient room for the support hand thumb along the frame. My left thumb rests with the side of the first joint even with the front edge of the slide stop, the RH thumb on the safety actually rubs the slide, as evidenced by finish wear along the lower LH side of the slide. Possibly the most important reason for running the 1911 with thumb over safety is that when you grip one with your thumb under it, muzzle flip can cause the thumb joint to bump the safety on during recoil. Not usually an issue with full size guns as much as the compacts.

    I'm starting to run long so will stop for now, before I get off into revolvers and palm index vs. heel index...
     
  13. Mikewood

    Mikewood Supporter Supporter

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    I tend to shoot everyone thumbs forward. It’s the least of my worries. The most important thing is to get a crystal clear front sight picture. Then press the trigger until it breaks and it’s a surprise. Then I can start to worry about platform, stance, grip, elbow positions etc.
     
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  14. Duncsquatch

    Duncsquatch Heed the call. Supporter

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    I do a revolver grip but my support hand is a little lower than some pics of the examples I just looked up.
     
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  15. Cwlongshot

    Cwlongshot Supporter Supporter

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    BEST ANSWER RIGHT HERE!

    Many have advised multiple times.

    Dont rely on gimmicks, practice the fundamentals will pay the dividends in the long run.


    CW
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2019
  16. haunted

    haunted Guide

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    hold gun shoot does it work? thats how you do it then
     
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  17. Knifeguy510

    Knifeguy510 Scout

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    No tea cuppin lol but with certain guns and thumbs forward I have to readjust every 3 to IDK 5 shots. With the Israeli or sorta revolver grip I don't.
     
  18. Knifeguy510

    Knifeguy510 Scout

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    I plan on it I just found out at the range in Wich I'm a member one on one classes are discounted for members quite a bit in fact.
     
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  19. Knifeguy510

    Knifeguy510 Scout

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    Not long post at all I'd like to soak up all the info I can . On the thumbs forward grip my thumb is further forward than my right hand thumb along the barrel not so much under my strong hand thumb that is on the safety. Is this not ideal? Also do u know when the thumbs forward grip came to be ?
     
  20. woodsranger

    woodsranger Solitude Seeker

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    :18:
     
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  21. Malamute

    Malamute Guide

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    I believe its from trying to get as much skin on the gun as possible. The left hand is strong on the grip space available on that side with the right thumb muscle of the hand over it, the hands as high as they can get to reduce muzzle rise. The thumbs have to go somewhere, so upwards and forwards. It works well for a lot of people, including some very good shooters, probably the majority of upper end shooters use the basic technique. It feels really awkward to me, and I dont shoot autos that much, so opted to keep muddling along doing what Ive been doing for ages. Thumbs down has probably been the most common in the US for a long time, and was used with revolvers a lot over time. Its been replaced to a degree over time, but is still common for some. Jerry Miculek uses it only on small J frame Smiths, but shoots thumbs up or forward for other stuff. I just try to do the same basic thing for whatever im using, its been reasonably successful, but Im not a competition shooter looking for any possible advantage and trying whatever may help. I may just be saying Im old and lazy and set in my ways.

    Information from the 40s and 50s showed the right thumb high on the gun for revolvers, I tried that, (and it had its proponents claiming the advantages of helping hold the muzzle rise down etc) but it never felt good to me then when I saw it repeated in the 1970s.

    I cringe when people say "Israeli" method or whatever, as if they had secrets nobody else figured out, or their "special forces" used secret techniques. They do many things very well, some of it gun related, but they dont hold any secrets that have somehow eluded the rest of the world. Some of their methods were related to teaching a variety of people quickly to use a variety of different pistols, hence the "Israeli carry" empty chamber thing that sometimes gets lauded as a superior technique, obviously, since the Israelis use it. It came about because they had different pistols with different safeties etc, and it was simpler to quickly teach many people to do it empty chamber than try to figure out what the operation of various guns may be that they might have to use. If one isnt familiar enough with their carry gun to operate it without conscious thought to prepare it to fire, empty chamber probably is a good idea, but not one Id tell people was a superior "advanced" technique used by experts.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2019
  22. Tangotag

    Tangotag Field Gear Junkie Bushclass I

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    Thumbs forward and away from touching the slide stop during recoil.
     
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  23. werewolf won

    werewolf won TANSTAAFL Supporter Bushcraft Friend

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    I could not tell you how my left thumb is held, because it's in my pocket :)


    I guess the real question is why does the instructor want you to change your grip? Is it a change because he believes it is best for you and your hand shape, or just because that is the only style he knows?
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2019
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  24. Grouse870

    Grouse870 Scout

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    I teach the thumbs forward and encourage it for the officers I teach (so I guess I’m not that bright, egotistical, or lack experience) I know the other methods however i tend to not use use them. I also shoot competitively. If you watch the majority of the higher level shooters they tend to shoot thumbs forward now a few may have there offhand finger(s) in front of the trigger guard but generally they shoot thumbs forward. Are there other methods yes do they work maybe but thumbs forward typically works for most shooters regardless of hand size.
     
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  25. Knifeguy510

    Knifeguy510 Scout

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    He just likes it he didn't tell me to shoot one way or another he said do what's most comfortable to me and practice the rest will come. I believe he just like having the same grip for all guns . The thumbs bent deal works for a wide variety of hand guns revolvers semi autos all of em. He just likes having one grip. I like thumbs forward with my Smith and Wesson mnps and Glock type guns xds and stuff like that . But with my cz75b and 1911 I like the thumbs bent more like a revolver grip. I don't know why that's just what is comfortable to me.

    I thank all of you for your input . I appreciate it alot. I get most of my gun related knowledge from you guys. I don't have friends or family whom shoot.
     
  26. Kennebago

    Kennebago Scout

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    I find a lot of the time that if someone is readjusting their grip a lot due to slippage under recoil, there's a couple of major reasons why.

    In general, they usually aren't rotating their support wrist far enough forward. The idea is to fill the frame with meat, not poke out your thumbs. A lot of people hear "thumbs forward" and that's all they try to do.

    Don't be afraid to experiment with floating your support thumb. Your grip isn't coming from your thumbs anyway, so you don't lose anything.
     
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  27. Richinva

    Richinva Lover of Sharpened Bits of Steel... Supporter

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    Look at the guys/gals who shoot really fast, really accurately, i.e., IPSC/USPSA. They wouldn't do thumbs forward if there were a better way. That being said, that's just one facet of a good grip.

    No pressure on the frame/slide from your support thumb. Pressure on shooting thumb, yes, I do this, if I can. 1911's with Swensons just gives me a bit more contact and leverage with the pistol. Glock, etc., you can't do this on a stock gun.

    Sorry, but for someone to teach anything but thumbs forward for an auto is just ludicrous. My $.02.
     
  28. GoKartz

    GoKartz El Coyote Supporter

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    My two pesos: find an instructor you'll listen to, pay for instruction from them, listen to what the instructor says, and do what the instructor says. Get off the internet and leave it alone. Practice practice practice.

    Don't change anything until you have a SOLID grasp of the fundamentals.

    If you're going to second guess the instructor you're paying for instruction, go find an instructor you won't second guess and give them your money instead.
     
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  29. Kennebago

    Kennebago Scout

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    Instruction is obviously best, but there are baseline things you can do so you maximize your time under instruction.

    Reading one of the quality shooting manuals out there will help. Brian Enos and Ben Stoeger both have excellent ones.

    Shoot for groups. You cannot shoot too many groups.
     
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  30. masiaka

    masiaka Scout

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    I think that maybe this video from Springfield Armory/Rob Leatham can help you, regardless of your grip. It starts with this kinda technical question about historical shooting grips and Rob's answer starts out being pretty technical, but stick around long enough to get past the history lesson. Rob talks about how your grip and stance affect how well you control the gun in a way that's easy to understand and use. Nobody mentions anything about thumbs, but you can start to understand why thumbs forward became popular. The video is basically a deeper dive into the reasons why a grip can slip under recoil, like Kennebago is talking about.

    And I would like to second what he is saying about experimenting with how much pressure you're exerting with your thumbs.
     
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  31. Cwlongshot

    Cwlongshot Supporter Supporter

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    Many here, self included have recommended finding and taking as class. You where as green as could be. You had not established bad habits that needed correction making the lessons harder. You have lost some of that advantage and the longer you go this route the harder it will be in the long run to correct it.
    You continually ask for help, (which is good) but usually end up going your own route. (Ignoring the good advice ascertained in the threads. Thats Bad) Thats human nature for the American Male I guess. I see the same all too often. Having been a instructor for most of the last almost 30 years, I see Women and GREEN MEN as the better students able to apply whats taught. (Women as best in this regard) probably 3:1 Ill get Women Students calling me back for a refresher range trip to polish out any bad habits. Guys in general feel that they don't want or “need” another guy telling them anything. When your new/green nothing is farther from the truth. None of us are born all knowing. We stop learning for only two reasons, Death and Choice.

    Hell, when I started as an instructor it was for the club I belong to to help bring in new shooters to our team. I made a HUGE jump about two years in... know how? I
    LISTENED AND ACTUALLY APPLIED, what I (myself) taught!!! That next year I made HIGH MASTER class in NRA Bullseye. A rank I held for over 15 years dropping to Master class after 40 when my eyes succumbed to what we all face...

    Anyhow enough of my rant. I wish you the best.

    But again you are best served to sign up for a good training class and spending $$ on AMMO AND RANGE USE. If you really want to become proficient. Also, look to see if there is a Bullseye league you can become involved in. NOTHING ELSE will benifit you in the quest to become the best you can be than to know & practice the fundamentals of firearms shooting.

    CW
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2019
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  32. Medic17

    Medic17 Supporter Supporter Bushclass I

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    I have seen a lot of weird grips.
    Find out what works best for you.

     
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  33. Knifeguy510

    Knifeguy510 Scout

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    I have signed up for a class it's next week. I found out that the price is greatly reduced for members or the range . I was unaware of that.
     
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  34. FreeMe

    FreeMe Guide

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    That's a fun and useful video.

    One thing I've learned in several disciplines, is that starting from what works best for most, and adjusting for my own needs, works better than starting from my own bad habits and working toward what works best for most.
     
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  35. arleigh

    arleigh Guide

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    There is more than one way to skin a cat .
    It frustrates me that in the movies a guys trigger finger is damaged in a gun fight but hasn't the cognizance to use another finger or the other hand .
    If you own the gun you have the opportunity to shoot the gun from every conceivable way possible even up side down for that matter.
    I can shoot left handed ,gun up side down with my little finger to pull the trigger.
    One's proficiency should be better than the box people tend to paint .
     
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  36. Scarywoody

    Scarywoody Scout

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    I cross my left thumb over my right thumb. I call it the Band Aid grip. I have actually done that and it really really hurts.
     
  37. Metaldog

    Metaldog Just chasing my tail... Supporter Bushcraft Friend

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    Like this
    upload_2019-7-1_12-52-34.jpeg

    :eek::rolleyes::18:
    jk
     
  38. Andy in NH

    Andy in NH Scout

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    I know your post was in jest, but it made me think of this:
    Craig Douglas ("SouthNarc") of Shivworks teaches a modification of the thumbs forward grip, in which the shooter presses the thumb of the firing hand on top of the meaty portion of the support side thumb.
    It keeps the firing hand thumb away from the slide and puts more pressure on the support side grip through to the frame.
    I'm a lefty, so the non-sinister shooters will have to reverse the example in the photo.
    SouthNarc grip mod.jpg
     
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  39. GunGoBoom

    GunGoBoom I'm not lost, I've just misplaced myself. Supporter Bushcraft Friend Bushclass I

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    Same. I also teach thumbs forward for the same reasons. It generally works for most people. When students have a problem while using a thumbs forward grip we start looking at deviations but everybody starts with the same baseline.

    To add to that, very few of our qualification failures are directly attributable to grip issues. 90+% of our failures are shooters who have a hard time getting over anticipating the recoil. I bet if you went to our range and counted misses you would find the VAST majority are below the target.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2019
  40. PeterCartwright

    PeterCartwright Guide

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    I've come to expect new shooters to wrap their thumbs around the back of the slide the first time they grab a pistol. It happens in every class. Thumbs forward is an easy way to keep new students from unpleasant experiences with a pistol slide as it cycles. I find this style works well for me, as well. Safety and utility are priorities for me whether instructing or just shooting. Other than that, do what you prefer (and your preferences may change throughout your shooting life.)

    PC
     
  41. Knifeguy510

    Knifeguy510 Scout

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    I like thumbs forward with my mnp 9c 2.0 and Glocks I've shot but with 1911s and CZ 75b that I own, the other way just feels better .
     

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