Impaired paddling?

Discussion in 'Paddling' started by x39, Jul 5, 2019.

  1. x39

    x39 Hyperborean Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2011
    Messages:
    7,984
    Likes Received:
    35,194
    Location:
    Beneath the wolf pine
    Reading the paper today I came across an article stating that law enforcement officers in Maine will be strictly enforcing drunk boating laws, which it said includes canoes, row boats, and kayaks. The BAC limit is .08 for these activities. So, I kind of had to scratch my head a bit at this. I can understand this level as a lowest common denominator for operation of a motor vehicle or power boat, but for a boat powered by human propulsion? It just seems like some serious overreach on the part of the government. Further, given that no license or boat registration is needed for operating a human powered boat, there is no implied consent as far as submitting to a test. So who in their right mind would consent? I don't really have a dog in the fight as I'm not much of a partier, but stuff like this kind of galls me. Oh yeah, be careful out there.
     
  2. Todd1hd

    Todd1hd Supporter Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2014
    Messages:
    895
    Likes Received:
    3,589
    Location:
    Louisville KY
    Canoe, kayak, or motor boat, drinking and water don't mix, people drown. In Kentucky you will be ticketed for drinking while floating on an inner tube, it is still drunk in a public place. And drunk is drunk no matter what you are doing. Good for Maine. Just my opinion of course.
     
  3. EternalLove

    EternalLove Guide

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    May 30, 2012
    Messages:
    2,691
    Likes Received:
    12,245
    It/We cannot last much longer as a nanny state.
     
  4. J. Pierce

    J. Pierce Perpetually Off Topic, Sorry. Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2013
    Messages:
    3,247
    Likes Received:
    15,582
    Location:
    Wisconsin, the north end
    I'm not for it, it's an over reach in my mind.
    A drunk in a row boat is no harm to others.

    But years ago I did find 2 guys passed out in a canoe full of beer cans, just floating adrift. I don't think they deserved a fine though. The massive sunburns and the hangovers they had the next morning must have been ample punishment.
     
  5. JeffG

    JeffG Guide

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2018
    Messages:
    1,642
    Likes Received:
    8,041
    Location:
    NE Wisconsin
    It's easier to work a DUI, that to drag for a body and notified shattered families. Obviously they are trying to protect people from their own stupidity, which is impossible.
     
    Ragman, Sawdustdave, GoFeesh and 8 others like this.
  6. x39

    x39 Hyperborean Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2011
    Messages:
    7,984
    Likes Received:
    35,194
    Location:
    Beneath the wolf pine
    So what is the limit of this endeavor?
     
  7. JeffG

    JeffG Guide

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2018
    Messages:
    1,642
    Likes Received:
    8,041
    Location:
    NE Wisconsin
    I'm not sure I agree with the effort. Agencies and government cause things to happen that leave people confused. More than once I was an officer enforcing a law or policy that really defied common sense, and American freedom. "There ought to be a law." gone crazy. I think it will get worse. At some point, it may come down to making impaired existence illegal. :rolleyes:

    But it's acceptable for cities to set up tent cities for drug addicts and mentally ill...I dunno.
     
  8. x39

    x39 Hyperborean Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2011
    Messages:
    7,984
    Likes Received:
    35,194
    Location:
    Beneath the wolf pine
    @JeffG , yep, I genuinely wonder what the limit will ultimately be. I have a habit of going alone into really remote places alone without telling anyone where I'm going. As an outdoor educator, I'm more than aware that this isn't recommended. But as a human being, I have a need to do things without a safety net. It's just who I am. I sometimes wonder whether the day will come when a person in a remote area upon meeting some government employee would have to prove that they had filed a trip plan with someone or face a fine. For their own safety of course...
     
  9. Don Robison

    Don Robison Seeker of Knowledge Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2017
    Messages:
    136
    Likes Received:
    562
    Location:
    Crestview, FL
    Absolutely don't agree with it, but they are doing a literal interpretation of the state law which says watercraft and makes no reference to power source. Common sense should be classified as a super power.
     
    DCPugh, Ragman, Sawdustdave and 5 others like this.
  10. JeffG

    JeffG Guide

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2018
    Messages:
    1,642
    Likes Received:
    8,041
    Location:
    NE Wisconsin
    Yes regrettably, I agree.
     
  11. Emt1231

    Emt1231 Tracker

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2019
    Messages:
    18
    Likes Received:
    80
    I feel like a lawyer can get you out of a drunk paddling. Either way at least it doesn't carry the same weight as a DUI for like say a car. I know because my friend got a boating while intoxicated.
     
  12. Haggis

    Haggis Bushmaster

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2014
    Messages:
    5,983
    Likes Received:
    28,074
    Location:
    Northern Minnesota
    The cynic in me says the whole DUI/DWI/drinking whilst doing anything thing is about the money. It makes the fella who had, literally, one too many fair game to have his pocket picked by the local and state constabulary... And who cares, “S/he shouldn’t have been drinking whilst doing anything”, “They got what they deserved”.

    Back in the 50’s and early ‘60’s my Dad was a weekend drunk, died at 39, I loved him, but he was a weekend drunk. Friday evening until Monday morning he was hammered. The police would just scoop him up in a butterfly net, and fetch him home when he was out and about.

    Someone discovered there was more money in the government fining drinking folk, and that sober folk didn’t much care.

    Driving, boating, hammock jumping, blindfolded unicycling, wheelchair racing, most anything folk do whilst drinking is a danger to themselves and to others, but fining them doesn’t much stop it,,, might make them sneakier, but if they’re a drinker, they’re gonna drink and do, and the state is gonna try to make money off their weakness...

    I’d never defend drinking and doing anything much more than dancing, playing poker, or sulking quietly in a corner, and I’d never defend fining drunks either. Maybe a few months of every weekend community service would be a better choice? DUI fines financially destroy the poor, hurt the middle class, and don’t mean anything to the wealthy,,, community service would be fairer, and effect everyone equally...
     
  13. Emt1231

    Emt1231 Tracker

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2019
    Messages:
    18
    Likes Received:
    80
    As a first responders I can guarantee you that drunk drivers kill people and themselves.
     
  14. Haggis

    Haggis Bushmaster

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2014
    Messages:
    5,983
    Likes Received:
    28,074
    Location:
    Northern Minnesota
    I do realize that, you are correct, absolutely. I can also see that fines don’t stop that from happening...
     
  15. Sandcut

    Sandcut Sed ego sum homo indomitus Vendor Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2010
    Messages:
    7,898
    Likes Received:
    20,561
    Location:
    Gouldsboro, PA
    Actually, although I'm pretty much a "You are free to do stupid things that get you killed" kinda guy, I'm not completely opposed to it.

    For the most part, it is going to depend on the waterway. On a little sunfish pond where only electric motors are authorized, yes, it seems a little silly. On larger waters with navigation channels and unlimited motors, a drunk in a canoe/kayak is a hazard to navigation and can cause harm to others and that's where it becomes a legitimate concern of the .gov responsible for policing the waters. But you can't have two standards for different waterways without having confusion and confusing laws are bad laws.
     
  16. Toytech

    Toytech Scout

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2013
    Messages:
    404
    Likes Received:
    1,060
    Location:
    edmonton AB
    I think safety words are much more convenient than having to always have a lawyer around but thats a discussion for another day . New laws where put in place on a few rivers here making it illegal to tube on the river and drink or do it without a pfd , alot of people raised a stink but none of them are the first responders that have to risk their lives having to pull someone`s corpse from the bottom of the river year after year . I know you cant fix stupid but the stupids usually dont pay for their mistakes they make others pay for them instead , im fine with them getting slapped with fines for what seem like silly things .
     
  17. hidden_lion

    hidden_lion Guide

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2015
    Messages:
    1,673
    Likes Received:
    3,488
    Location:
    Palmyra, NY
    .08 isnt drunk. It's barely impared
     
  18. Bitterroot Native

    Bitterroot Native Indigenous Skills Junkie

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2016
    Messages:
    2,051
    Likes Received:
    10,685
    Location:
    Interior Alaska/Southern Oregon
    In Oregon they want you to register everything even small inflatable rafts... Not only that, they have implemented a "fee" of sorts for floating the river. Supposed to pay like 15 bucks for the privilege of sitting on something buoyant whilst letting the current carry you, this is for the Rogue River not sure about other Oregon rivers or counties.

    I don't know how they'll enforce this or how it works exactly (do they give a floating licence? a sticker to put on your tube?) but I can tell you I will NEVER pay a fee to float a river. I'll take the fine not pay it then opt for jail time in lieu of the fine, it's way cheaper in the long run.

    I think it's over reach for sure trying to give DUI's to human powered boaters. They are only a risk to themselves and if you ask me, I have a RIGHT to risk my own life if I so choose. Everything comes down to money. This is a thinly veiled attempt to generate more revenue (at the expense of the citizens) under the guise of safety. Same concept as traffic laws/tickets. They say its in the name of safety and for the public good (it is for the common good but that's not what it's really about) but really it's a shakedown all the while saying "its for your own good, were keeping you safe!".

    Any time the government at any level starts telling a person that its for their safety or its for their own good, there are always other motives.
     
  19. hidden_lion

    hidden_lion Guide

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2015
    Messages:
    1,673
    Likes Received:
    3,488
    Location:
    Palmyra, NY
    Not the government's job to protect you from you. Next they will mandate you wear a helmet while walking so as you dont fall and hit your head. Lots of people die each year from fall
     
    Sawdustdave, JeffG, x39 and 1 other person like this.
  20. Prairiewolf

    Prairiewolf Supporter Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2012
    Messages:
    2,012
    Likes Received:
    2,471
    Location:
    Illinois
    "Yes, officer, I watched him zig zag all the way across the lake."
     
  21. Tangotag

    Tangotag Field Gear Junkie Bushclass I

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2015
    Messages:
    3,095
    Likes Received:
    15,221
    Location:
    WI
    Say, shouldn't there be some sort of a "tax" on the sale of alcohol in addition to enforcing various displays of too much public consumption.
    The coffers could then be filled by the peasants just trying to drown in the sorrows of their miserable lives.
    :16:
     
  22. FreeMe

    FreeMe Guide

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2011
    Messages:
    4,553
    Likes Received:
    5,130
    Location:
    Idaho
    I'm not in favor of useless laws or those that are just hidden taxes. But on this issue, I am torn. It might seem like a "victimless" offense, but it potentially is not. The risk gets extended to whomever does the rescue or recovery.

    A few years ago, I encountered a couple of guys who had been drinking while taking their rowboat down the local river. It was February, and while it was an unusually sunny and warm day, evening was approaching, and it would soon be very cold. This is a class 1 stretch and flow was at the winter low, so it should have been easy to manage. I was doing it standing in a canoe (with pole, pfd, and insulated drysuit). These guys, being impaired, had managed to swamp their boat and pinned it on the rocks of an outside bend. Thankfully, they had all but recovered their craft when I reached them, but they were wet and cold.

    That's not the rescue part.

    I offered them the spare dry clothes I had in a drybag, but they refused. They claimed they were fine, and would be along their way directly. So I left them and went on down to the take-out. I spent about an hour by the take-out, doing loops around the small island there - and they never showed up. Now I had a dilemma. I couldn't leave the river without knowing they were either safe or beyond saving, but waiting longer might mean being there after dark. So I went back up the river.

    I found them right where I left them. They had been trying unsuccessfully to start a warming fire (there wasn't enough dry wood there anyway), and were now showing signs of mild hypothermia. It was starting to get dark, and would soon be well below freezing. After they refused the dry clothes again, I told them they better get in their boat and follow me down. They did, but I had to worry all the way down that I might be pulling them out of the water in the dark.

    We made it, and there was enough dry wood there for me to get a warming fire going. But things could have been much worse. I was pretty pissed that they had put me in a very dangerous position to maintain my moral principles (still am, actually).

    Every year, we lose someone (in recent years, several each year) on just this river alone. The public expects a rescue attempt, and most of us feel morally obligated to provide or attempt one. Sometimes rescuers end up being the victim. But more to the point, rescue professionals spend a lot of time training. We nearly lost one of those men this year in a training accident. And training and having the right equipment costs us all money.

    I'm not going to say that government always makes the laws fit every situation (we all know that's not even close) but I will not question the motivation in this case. A guy having a beer while floating on flat water doesn't bother me. And frankly, although there are community costs involved, it doesn't bother me personally if that guy I don't know drowns because no one was there to see him fall in - particularly if the body recovery involves no risk. It could even be argued that if we all just looked away, natural selection would make this a self-correcting issue. But community expects a certain level of response, so there follows that there will be strings attached. We can either accept it, complain about it, or do the work to change it for the better.

    BTW, I read some time ago that a significant number of the bodies of drowning victims recovered from fishing lakes were found with their flies open. Make of that what you will.
     
  23. Sandcut

    Sandcut Sed ego sum homo indomitus Vendor Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2010
    Messages:
    7,898
    Likes Received:
    20,561
    Location:
    Gouldsboro, PA
    As always, a well reasoned post.
     
  24. Niagara

    Niagara Scout

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Messages:
    665
    Likes Received:
    4,969
    Location:
    S. Ontario, Canada
    Folks here in Canada we just had a judge declare a guilty verdict on the charge of ' impaired operation of a vessel causing death' - a tragic story as an 8 year old lost his life. It has opened a whole debate about human powered, vs motor - what the definition of a 'vessel' is - and whether bunch of folks floating in truck tubes with a floating cooler could be charged while at the cottage.
    Now a whole bunch of stupid in my opinion occurred (April, high and cold water, life jacket too small) however I just thought I'd add to the conversation.
    https://nationalpost.com/news/in-a-...an-convicted-of-impaired-operation-of-a-canoe
     
  25. Todd1hd

    Todd1hd Supporter Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2014
    Messages:
    895
    Likes Received:
    3,589
    Location:
    Louisville KY
    Well in every state and jurisdiction I am aware of it's considered impaired. There is a reason that level was chosen. Perhaps because it is slightly less than being not in control of your actions? Don't know, I didn't make the law, I just know what it is. I didn't make the law that tickets people drinking on an inner tube, but if I do it, I know it's against the law and if I am ticketed it, it's on me, not the ticket writer. I admit I don't care much for drunks.my best friend was killed by one.
     
    Sawdustdave and x39 like this.
  26. x39

    x39 Hyperborean Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2011
    Messages:
    7,984
    Likes Received:
    35,194
    Location:
    Beneath the wolf pine
    In my view, this level is applied too broadly. Too much for operating a vehicle travelling a mile a minute in busy traffic? Arguably yes. But for paddling a watercraft at a small fraction of that speed on a pond? Seems like overkill to me. And BTW, I was creamed by a drunk on my motorcycle once, so while I'm no advocate of drunk driving, I don't let my emotions cloud my reason. I have no issue with holding people to account for the consequences of their actions, but the nanny state is starting to go way too far.
     
  27. RobbieinME

    RobbieinME Scout

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2014
    Messages:
    333
    Likes Received:
    851
    Location:
    Maine
    I know they put out the word before the Kenduskeag Canoe Race no drinking is allowed, I think that started the year the air temp was in the 70s water not so much and they treated 30-40 people for hypothermia. In California you can get a DUI for being drunk on horse. When I joined the Navy in 73 the " was Sailors have more fun" times change I guess. Only historians will know if its for the better.
     
  28. Robedsubset

    Robedsubset Scout

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2019
    Messages:
    419
    Likes Received:
    1,641
    Location:
    Maine
    Yeah and they had game wardens hiding out in trees with binoculars making sure you didn’t have any beer in your canoe. And they wonder why they have such a bad reputation around here
     
    Sawdustdave and x39 like this.
  29. hidden_lion

    hidden_lion Guide

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2015
    Messages:
    1,673
    Likes Received:
    3,488
    Location:
    Palmyra, NY
    Penalty should be reserved for instances where it does impact others. This precrime stuff is nutz. Hurt yourself and you get your own penalty. Hurt othere then the state can handle the penalty phase. Hurt neither yourself nor others then no issue
     
  30. hidden_lion

    hidden_lion Guide

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2015
    Messages:
    1,673
    Likes Received:
    3,488
    Location:
    Palmyra, NY
    Your right. They consider it impared, but not drunk. It's a matter of applying g an easy standard across a variety of factors. This being the lowest common denominator. One beer will put you over the limit, but I doubt you even feel a buzz unless you are small or low body weight. That is why they do the touch your nose routine. Just like if they were really concerned about speeding and safety, all cars would be equipped with governors that automatically slow you to the safe speed
     
    x39 and Todd1hd like this.
  31. Todd1hd

    Todd1hd Supporter Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2014
    Messages:
    895
    Likes Received:
    3,589
    Location:
    Louisville KY
    It is an interesting issue with probably not an answer that will please everyone. Probably too much government intervention in all areas of our lives and what the government can't figure out is you can't fix stupid.
     
    hidden_lion and x39 like this.
  32. FreeMe

    FreeMe Guide

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2011
    Messages:
    4,553
    Likes Received:
    5,130
    Location:
    Idaho
    Seems like I remember that the. 08 number is a federal standard that the states were extorted into adopting for DUI. Prior to that, my state used a higher limit. I'd probably agree that the same standard shouldn't apply to the paddler on a small lake, but knowing how these things go, it probably seemed logical to use a known standard when extending it to watercraft. I really doubt that anyone in the regulating body said or thought, "hey, we can make some money with this". If that were the case, the penalty would be much higher, IMO.

    Lawmakers aren't very good at tuning regulations to fit various conditions. That's why these things get amended so often. It's usually up to the injured party or group to campaign for a change. If you can make your case, there is a chance you can get some relief. At least, that's how it works in most states.

    In the meantime, the enforcers can't just check everybody. That is neither legal, nor practical. The easiest way to avoid the penalty is to not look or act like a drunk. ;)

    I'm only half joking there. We know that officers profile for potential DUI. I myself was introduced to about every local PO over the stretch of a year or so, because of my vehicle and work schedule at the time. What made that stop was selling the old rig. It happens and it ain't right, but if you think about what they're looking for, it can be avoided. The obvious thing, of course, is to not be acting impaired. (Implies not being impaired, of course).

    As for the " no harm, no foul" idea. Yeah, that sounds reasonable - if it can be quantified. Pretty easy to accept that drowning yourself on a small lake when paddling alone and out of sight endangers no one else. From there though, things get murky.
     
  33. RobbieinME

    RobbieinME Scout

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2014
    Messages:
    333
    Likes Received:
    851
    Location:
    Maine
    Then there was the time Maine lawmakers made it mandatory to wear a TYPE 1 PFD on PWCs LOL.
     
  34. hidden_lion

    hidden_lion Guide

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2015
    Messages:
    1,673
    Likes Received:
    3,488
    Location:
    Palmyra, NY
    Lawmakers have become very poor at lawmaking...they should be fired. Maybe we need to hire regular people or start paying lawmakers the same as McDonalds employees
     
    IzaWildman, FreeMe, x39 and 1 other person like this.
  35. Togus

    Togus Echo of the Loon Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2016
    Messages:
    1,979
    Likes Received:
    6,711
    Location:
    Maine
    As a lifelong Mainer, I feel it’s utterly stupid. We all know protection rarely comes from increased legislation. I don’t believe for one minute it will deter drinking and kayaking/canoeing. .08 BAL is one 12oz beer , 4oz of wine, or 1oz of 80 proof liquor (approximately). I can appreciate motorized boats, obviously, but criminalizing me for having a couple beers while I fish from my canoe. C’mon! I’m not sure how far IF&W would take this, but given my experience with them I’m guessing as far as they can. In Maine there’s levels of OUI based on BAL. .16 is a high class misdemeanor (not sure) and .24 is felony! As a registered nurse licensed in this state I could lose my RN license for drinking and canoeing. Crazy.
     
  36. Sawdustdave

    Sawdustdave Supporter Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2017
    Messages:
    894
    Likes Received:
    5,692
    Location:
    Appleton WI
    I spend my Monday nights at a state prison for drug and alcohol offenders, leading a meeting. And I've been out on lakes where I've not been able to fish because some over-served yokels were being loud and obnoxious in their paddle craft. Putting those around them in danger. So, in one way, I'm in favor of this law. For the sake of those around the folks drinking to excess.

    Funny thing, though. Here in Wisconsin, I must wear my seatbelt in my truck, but folks on motorcycles do not need to wear a helmet. It's OK for them to smear their brains across the road if they get into an accident - whether caused by themselves or another. Every time the law comes up for a change cyclists storm the state capital screaming that a helmet law is not fair. I know lots of guys - and gals - who ride bikes, most would never ride w/o their helmet, shoes, and at least jeans and a leather coat. But I see lots of folks wearing flip flops and shorts, with t-shirts.

    I dunno... I hate "nanny state" laws, but also know that some of them are not about the "offender" but made to protect the rest of us. Glad I don't need to make the decisions...
     
    gila_dog and x39 like this.
  37. FreeMe

    FreeMe Guide

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2011
    Messages:
    4,553
    Likes Received:
    5,130
    Location:
    Idaho
    And there's your answer. If the paddling community (if there is such a thing) stormed the legislature like the bikers do, you might see a change. But first, you need a bill and a sponsor. It takes organization and a little homework and advance work, but it can be done.

    But if it's like my state, good luck organizing the paddling community. ;)
     
    x39 likes this.
  38. Bad Little Falls

    Bad Little Falls Guide

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2014
    Messages:
    1,741
    Likes Received:
    3,659
    ....... while texting.
     
    hidden_lion, x39 and J. Pierce like this.
  39. Bad Little Falls

    Bad Little Falls Guide

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2014
    Messages:
    1,741
    Likes Received:
    3,659
    The Canadian case is likely pushing this. It seems to have the timing to apply the totalitarian tip toe. Anyway, I was out on my boat on the 4th of July, had shorts on and got a wicked sunburn on my white legs, ouchy. Caught some bass, catch and release, saw an otter playing along the shore, snapping turtle swam under my boat and jumped a deer that was out feasting on water plants in the river leading back to my home, she was half way up to her body in water, fantastic to see her bound through the water and grass to finally reach dry ground and really do some bounding to get to the woodsy cover where she blew a few times. Scared her, I did. So more anyways, this is why I go to the "woods" and when I do I am not drinking any booze. In fact I don't at all. As sovereign beings, and we all should be but that has been stripped of us, its our responsibility to be in charge of our functions and take responsibility when thing falter. This just doesn't happen anymore, in part because we have become sloppy and this is on purpose, controlling agents want this control and they now have it. We have been duped.

    There is research being done on hunter gatherer societies and their call to duty of public shaming when a person is out of line, maybe this should be adopted again. Thing happen we are not perfect. Instead of Big Brother holding our hand how about our fellow beings help each other out, FreeMe has a good example where he aided the mistaken paddlers, and a great excuse to head back up river, up river travel is alluring and it takes work.

    On my 4th adventure I was stopped by a law enforcement officer, for the first time in my life I was check for fishing licence. He was also interested to see if I was drinking and ask just that, he struck out on both accounts and I got a small praise for actually having my life jacket on, which he did a turn about and explained that I didn't actually have to have it on but just in the boat, It was one of those nice sunny days and I have the red legs to show it. His comment let me down in the trust factor, I told him, sir I always wear my life jacket. I really didn't need a baby sitter that day, but he didn't know that.

    Now, don't get me started on my latest pet peeve on my adventure to seek out proper channels to acquire a clam harvesting permit. That is a real joke. btw, I didn't have clams for on the 4th of July, and I can see the coast line from the roof of my home, because of a man made regulation and a line drawn on map. The act would make me a criminal.
     
    Sawdustdave, Rockdog1, Ragman and 3 others like this.
  40. x39

    x39 Hyperborean Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2011
    Messages:
    7,984
    Likes Received:
    35,194
    Location:
    Beneath the wolf pine
    Well said @Bad Little Falls . Moral and social responsibility don't seem to be on the table for discussion any longer.
     
    Ragman and Bad Little Falls like this.
  41. RobOz

    RobOz Guide

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2013
    Messages:
    1,218
    Likes Received:
    2,272
    Location:
    SWPA
    I love floating down the river casting for smallmouth and enjoying a couple ice cold beers. I live about 100 yards from the river and do see quite a few loud and drunk paddlers. I have no problem with those people being pinched. I also find the young obnoxious drunks to be the biggest trash dumpers (drink it and sink it idoits) Even while floating solo we must remember that we are the Captain of the vessel.
     
    Scotchmon, Ragman and FreeMe like this.
  42. jpoe88

    jpoe88 Supporter Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2014
    Messages:
    373
    Likes Received:
    929
    Location:
    Hueytown Alabama
    This is much like seatbelts and helmet laws. Under 18 yes, these should be mandatory. Hell, make it 21.

    If I choose to not wear a seat belt, how is it anyone else's business what happens to me if I am jettisoned out of my windshield
     
    DCPugh likes this.
  43. gila_dog

    gila_dog Supporter Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2011
    Messages:
    3,765
    Likes Received:
    12,022
    Location:
    New Mexico
    The only justification I see for drunk driving, boating, etc laws is that other people may get injured by the drunks. A drunk in a rowboat may not be too likely to hurt anybody else, unless he's drifting around, passed out, in an area where motor boats and jet skis are hauling ass. But a drunk driving a motor boat is a pretty scary thought for me. As a firefighter I have to go to car wrecks sometimes, and when you see the damage that drunks can do to other people, it gives you a different perspective on it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2019
  44. FreeMe

    FreeMe Guide

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2011
    Messages:
    4,553
    Likes Received:
    5,130
    Location:
    Idaho
    @gila_dog , what do you think of the drinker who's irresponsible behavior (perhaps, simply clumsy buzzed) causes a building fire that you have to go into?
     
  45. gila_dog

    gila_dog Supporter Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2011
    Messages:
    3,765
    Likes Received:
    12,022
    Location:
    New Mexico
    The only house (in this case trailer) fire I've had to deal with that was caused by a drunk, just killed the guy's dog and burned up everything the guy owned. That was so sad, and we felt really sorry for him. I helped bury his dog. But he had some serious mental problems (tunnel rat in Vietnam) and nobody held it against him. A lot of people pitched in some money and other stuff to help him out. But a lot of car wrecks are caused by drunks. The last one we had to go to the guy had driven off the road into a canyon, and he got killed. It was a tough job getting his body out of there. But at least he didn't hurt anybody else.
     
  46. FreeMe

    FreeMe Guide

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2011
    Messages:
    4,553
    Likes Received:
    5,130
    Location:
    Idaho
    I appreciate that, but it kind of sidestepped my point. Probably because I didn't make my point well.

    IMO, a government has a responsibility to see that they do what they can within reason to limit exposure to first responders. Not just for their safety, but also as a matter of fiscal responsibility. You know that's part of why we have a fire code. My view is that same responsibility extends to whatever legal authority is responsible for rescue on the public waters. I can agree that there is some legitimate argument about where to draw the line, but a line should be drawn, IMO. What I see here though, is a failure by some to see past the man drinking a beer in his non-motorized boat.

    The man in the boat isn't a problem, but the man out of his boat because he's buzzed is. If he saves himself, fine. If he drowns without taking someone down with him, not so much - but that's his biz. But if the guy on shore dives in to save him, and by doing so gives up his own life (it happens) - that's not okay. And neither is it okay to invite him to watch, for his own safety. This is where I draw the line on where one's rights end and another's begins. If we lived in a world that found watching someone drown and doing nothing acceptable, I'd say "let all be their own master". But we don't.

    The only question I see is - where do we put the limit, on each body of water (assuming we are smart enough to make a practical differentiation between flat water and moving water).
     
    x39, RobOz and Scotchmon like this.
  47. RiceOnSuede

    RiceOnSuede Scout

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2015
    Messages:
    752
    Likes Received:
    3,955
    NJ takes care of that by making possesion of alcohol illegal anywhere public you'd be able to paddle
     
    x39 likes this.
  48. FreeMe

    FreeMe Guide

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2011
    Messages:
    4,553
    Likes Received:
    5,130
    Location:
    Idaho
    Now that's wayyyyy overboard! But it's NJ, so I am not surprised.
     
  49. x39

    x39 Hyperborean Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2011
    Messages:
    7,984
    Likes Received:
    35,194
    Location:
    Beneath the wolf pine
    By the same token, the first rule in any wilderness emergency is not to create a second victim.
     
    FreeMe and Bad Little Falls like this.
  50. x39

    x39 Hyperborean Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2011
    Messages:
    7,984
    Likes Received:
    35,194
    Location:
    Beneath the wolf pine
    Everything is illegal in New Jersey. It's the one state out of all the others that I will do almost anything to avoid travelling to or through.
     

Share This Page