Interesting History about ancient white people in the Americas.

Discussion in 'Media Forum' started by Red Ochre, Mar 18, 2018.

  1. Red Ochre

    Red Ochre BCUSA Friend Bushcraft Friend

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    The video does not state these mummies were buried in Red Ochre but they were.
    Caucasoid people found in N. America that are close to 9000 years old.

    Same in China and other parts of the world. Very interesting stuff!







     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2018
  2. JC1

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    That is very interesting
     
  3. Zunga

    Zunga Bushmaster

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    Interesting stuff. I read a post here recently about boats being a much older technology than first thought. If that's true then anything is possible. :dblthumb:
     
  4. Sticks N' Stones

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    Perhaps Solutreans? At least in N.America, not sure about China but neat none the less.

    EDIT- I'm amazed that one of the China mummies appears to still have his whiskers! AMAZING!
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2018
  5. Zunga

    Zunga Bushmaster

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    History we're taught is so fragmented. I recently learned the Australian aboriginal first contact with outsiders. Wasn't the Dutch. It was Indonesian fishermen trading with groups on the north coast. The aboriginals gathered sea cucumber and traded them for goods. That was the 1200's.
     
  6. Red Ochre

    Red Ochre BCUSA Friend Bushcraft Friend

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    Yes Solutreans are older than Clovis peoples.
    Their tools and spearheads found here in America are of the same designs and techniques found in Europe.
     
  7. zelph

    zelph Supporter Supporter

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    Yes, there were 2 groups, the caucasoid and the "dark skinned" native americans. Two groups were at war with one another. The caucasoid that started to follow the beliefs of the dark skinned native Americans wanted to identify themselves in a way to show that they were on their side, so they used "red ochre" to color their face/skin to differentiate themselves from the "caucasoid group.
     
  8. unclebead

    unclebead Scout

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    Do you have references for this information?

    Eric
     
  9. zelph

    zelph Supporter Supporter

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    I do have references. I'll post when I find them in my notes. My source does not say red ochre but says only that they colored their faces red. I take the liberty to say it was red ochre. To cover an entire grave/body with red ochre must have been reserved for someone of importance.
     
  10. zelph

    zelph Supporter Supporter

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    "Red Ochre" tell us more of what you know about the mummies being buried in red ochre and how it is you came to be known as "Red Ochre"
     
  11. Red Ochre

    Red Ochre BCUSA Friend Bushcraft Friend

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    I'm not surprised. It's a controversial subject.
    From Russia to S. America ancient tombs have been discovered with the dead buried in Red Ochre.
    Some are 40.000 years old.

    If your interested and have the time watch this from beginning to end.
    It's about an hour.

     
  12. Jim L.

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    There's an interesting theory that pre-clovis, European peoples may have come acros the Atlantic during one of the ice ages.

    The theory surmises that hunters, using small skin covered boats followed bear, seal and walrus(?) along the ice edge, eventually venturing further and further in pursuit of their game until eventually coming ashore upon the North American continent.

    The theory goes on with the thought that because of the climatic conditions of the time, the glacial ice extended hundreds of miles south from where it s found today. Evidence suggests that ocean ice may have stretched from France and the British Isles to possibly as far as Virginia or even the Carolinas.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2018
  13. WY_Not

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    A book along the same lines... "Across Atlantic Ice: The Origin of America's Clovis Culture" by Dennis Stanford and Bruce Bradley.
     
  14. Duncsquatch

    Duncsquatch Heed the call. Supporter

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    Yep all people were always highly intelligent and always exploring. The part I don't understand about this is some people are pushing the agenda that if Europeans were on North America earlier than somehow that invalidates Native American claims. I don't see the logic.
     
  15. Vanitas

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    IMO human history invalidates any claim any group makes. Killing and movement and taking over other people’s stuff has been part of the human condition for tens of thousands of years. When Columbus got here natives were killing each other. I don’t understand people’s current view that things were so peaceful here. Someone came, took their stuff the same as they did to others. Someone will eventually do it to us. World peace is such a new ideal that it is impossible due to the human condition.
     
  16. Sticks N' Stones

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    Even if we had a solar flare and mass epidemics, the survivors would still be like our ancestors thousands of years ago, take from others so your people can survive...that's human nature.
     
  17. Duncsquatch

    Duncsquatch Heed the call. Supporter

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    I guess what I am saying is if there is no one left from the mystery people in the OP's video references around any more what bearing does it have on current situations? None. Some would try to make it an issue though.

    I agree that people will do what they have to, not just to survive, but to live well and it has always been so. I am glad I live in a time where the luxury of kindness is an option for the most part. That luxury is fragile though and I have no illusions on how quickly it can disappear.
     
  18. Duncsquatch

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    Last edited: Mar 22, 2018
  19. zelph

    zelph Supporter Supporter

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    Religious post deleted. sorry bout that ;-)

    A few years ago I found some yellow ochre. Will go to the place this year to photograph it.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2018
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  20. WY_Not

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    Well bless your heart. :rolleyes:

    Now can we get back to discussing the media and leave the religion at the door per BCUSA rules? :34:
     
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  21. zelph

    zelph Supporter Supporter

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    Thank you for the reminder, post deleted. :)
     
  22. zelph

    zelph Supporter Supporter

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    It's amazing what they found at the Koster Site:

     
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  23. Haggis

    Haggis Guide

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    In ancient times, and in the current era, caucasoid skin tones ranged, and range, from white to quite dark brown,,, This far removed in time it would seem nigh to impossible to determine whether or not the race that survived in the Americas was the paler of the two. Perhaps red ochre was simply a symbol of wealth or social standing?

    I'm a very skeptical historian. Too often, researchers have agendas,,,
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2018
  24. zelph

    zelph Supporter Supporter

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    I think red ocher was the most popular powder available to decorate items of value. I don't think it was anything more than a decorative product.
     
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  25. tomme boy

    tomme boy Guide

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    What I really want to know is who were the people before the ice age. There is an entire civilization that was wiped out that was erased by the rapid melting of the ice cap. I really think that is where all the flood stories come from in every religion on the planet. The oceans raised over 300'. Maybe Atlantis was not a story after all!???
     
  26. Sticks N' Stones

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    Look up Doggerland, it was a land bridge from England to mainland Europe, it's now underwater. I saw a documentary about Atlantis being in Spain, it was called "Atlantis Rising" on Nat Geo, I whole heartedly recommend it.
     
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  27. zelph

    zelph Supporter Supporter

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    Koster Site
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Koster Site is located in Illinois

    Location 200 yards (180 m) east of the Eldred-Hillview road, 5.5 miles (8.9 km) south of Eldred
    Nearest city Eldred, Illinois
    Coordinates 39°12′33″N 90°32′57″WCoordinates: 39°12′33″N 90°32′57″W
    Area 25 acres (10 ha)
    NRHP reference # 72000460[1]

    The Koster Site is a prehistoric archaeological site located south of Eldred, Illinois. The site covers more than 3 acres and extends 30 feet down into the alluviel deposits of the Illinois River valley. Over the course of its excavation between 1969 and 1978, Koster produced deeply buried evidence of ancient human occupation from the early Archaic period (BC 7500) to the Mississippian period (AD 1000).[2][3] The soil strata contains a total of 25 distinct occupations each separated by additional layers of soil, making the site exceptionally well-preserved.[4]

    The site includes one of the oldest known cemetery sites in eastern North America. The cemetery site has provided researchers with evidence that Early Archaic civilizations had specific burial practices and buried their dead in mounds, often with numerous individuals buried together. Other significant discoveries made at the site include early evidence of North Americans using stones to grind food and keeping domesticated dogs.[5] The discovery of permanent residences and items which could not be easily transported at the site suggests that it was a large permanent village.[6] Excavations at the site have also yielded a variety of stone tools, which were used for various purposes and also indicate long-term habitation of the site.[5] Artifacts and evidence from the excavation helped archeologists revise their thinking about early inhabitants from nomads to a sedentary people living in year round structures.

    The site was discovered in 1967 on the farm fields of Theodore and Mary Koster and subsequently named after them. The discovery was made by Northwestern University anthropologist Stuart Struever who stumbled on the farm and the rich trove of historically significant artifacts that lay beneath the cornfields after a tip from a local farmer.[7] Struever had recently founded the Center for American Archeology located in Kampsville, Illinois. Under his leadership, the site became one of the largest excavations of its era, drawing over 10,000 yearly visitors; it is considered to be the Center for American Archeology's most important discovery.[6] The site was added to the National Register of Historic Places on June 19, 1972.[1]
     
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  28. that_guy

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  29. Sticks N' Stones

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    [​IMG]
     
  30. tomme boy

    tomme boy Guide

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    I am talking the megalithic builders. Pretty cool how a culture we know nothing about was cutting stone we have just been able to duplicate with lasers and waterjets and diamond cutters in the last few years. But they were doing it somehow before the ice age????
     
  31. zelph

    zelph Supporter Supporter

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    All we can do is read everything that is available and learn a little here and a little there, line upon line, precept upon precept. It's mind boggling to see how we have progressed technologically.
     
  32. stingray4540

    stingray4540 Scout

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    Tagged tobwatch later
     
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  33. zelph

    zelph Supporter Supporter

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    More info on the Koster Site in Illinois:

    Archaic Occupations at Koster
    Beneath the Koster farm lies evidence of 25 different human occupations, beginning with the early Archaic period, around 7500 BC, and ending with the Koster farm. Village after village, some with cemeteries, some with houses, beginning some 34 feet below the modern Koster farmstead. Each occupation was buried by the deposits of the river, each occupation leaving its mark on the landscape nonetheless.

    Probably the best studied occupation to date (Koster is still the focus of many graduate theses) is the set of Early Archaic occupations known as Horizon 11, dated 8700 years ago.

    Archaeological excavations of Horizon 11 have revealed a thick midden of human occupation residues, basin shaped storage pits and hearths, human graves, diverse stone and bone tool assemblages, and floral and faunal remains resulting from human subsistence activities. Dates on Horizon 11 range from 8132-8480 uncalibrated radiocarbon years before the present (RCYBP).

    Also in Horizon 11 were the bones of five domesticated dogs, representing some of the earliest evidence for the domestic dog in the Americas. The dogs were purposefully buried in shallow pits and they are the earliest known dog burials in North America. The burials are essentially complete: all of them are adults, none exhibit evidence of burning or butchery marks.

    Impacts
    In addition to the vast amount of information garnered about the American Archaic period, the Koster site is also important for its long-term interdisciplinary research efforts. The site is located near the town of Kampsville, and Struever set up his lab there, now the Center for American Archaeology and a major center of archaeological research in the American Midwest. And, perhaps most importantly, the Northwestern University excavations at Koster proved that ancient sites could be preserved hidden deep beneath the valley floors of major rivers.
     
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  34. caoutdoorsman

    caoutdoorsman Scout

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    ^I agree with this.
    Although the progenitor population may have originally migrated to North America from elsewhere, the time elapsed between the initial waves of migration and the rediscovery of the Americas by the Old World populations have been such long periods of time that the original founding populations evolved their own unique phenotypic, linguistic and cultural traits.

    I also think that part of the problem is that people conflate modern populations with ancient ones; just because the initial founding population of a given group might be phenotypically similar to another modern-day group, that doesn't mean that the original population of ancient humans was identical to the population that remained and evolved into the ethnic group seen today in the original location. Natural selection never stops, and selective pressures would still cause the two populations to evolve and diverge independently. Different selective pressures would also continue to act on the original population once they were separated from the emigrating population, and gene flow from other migrating populations would lead to even greater divergence between the two groups.

    In that sense Native Americans aren't Asians or Europeans that migrated; they're their own distinct ethnicity and race and were here long before any other modern day population.
     
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  35. caoutdoorsman

    caoutdoorsman Scout

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    To expand on the point I was trying to make in a previous post, here's an example of an ethnic group which resembles modern day Europeans and West Asians phenotypically but are completely genetically separate from those populations. They're the Kalash people of rural Pakistan, and form a completely separate genetic cluster from any of the other 5 main clusters of humanity.

    [​IMG]

    From https://www.cell.com/ajhg/fulltext/S0002-9297(15)00137-8 :

    "Human populations show subtle allele-frequency differences that lead to geographical structure, and available methods thus allow individuals to be clustered according to genetic information into groups that correspond to geographical regions. In an early worldwide survey of this kind, division into five clusters unsurprisingly identified (1) Africans, (2) a widespread group including Europeans, Middle Easterners, and South Asians, (3) East Asians, (4) Oceanians, and (5) Native Americans. However, division into six groups led to a more surprising finding: the sixth group consisted of a single population, the Kalash.1 The Kalash are an isolated South Asian population of Indo-European speakers residing in the Hindu Kush mountain valleys in northwest Pakistan, near the Afghan frontier."

    The point I'm trying to make is that you can't derive meaningful conclusions by looking at the phenotypic traits of an ancient group; you'd have to do genetic tests to determine if it bears any relation to a modern population. Even then, you'd still have to compare the ancient genotypes to modern ones in the area to see if the ancient population contributed anything to the indigenous individuals in the area today. The ancient population may have died out from famine, disease, climate or warfare and may not have contributed to any of the groups in the area.
     
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  36. caoutdoorsman

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    Again, we have to be careful about assuming things about ancient populations; this article is predicated on the assumption that the humans that emigrated from Africa were phenotypically similar to populations of modern day sub-Saharan Africans. Selective pressures have been acting on both European and African populations since they diverged; the ancient population that emigrated out of Africa seems to have had a wide array of different pigmentation alleles, and likely had a wide range of ingroup variation:

    From https://www.theatlantic.com/science...tory-of-the-genes-that-color-our-skin/542694/ :
    "Tishkoff says that her results complicate the traditional evolutionary story of human skin. In this view, humanity began with dark skin in Africa to protect against the harmful effects of the sun’s ultraviolet radiation. As people migrated to other continents, some groups evolved lighter skin, to more effectively produce vitamin D in areas where sunlight is scarce.

    But most of the variants that Tishkoff’s team identified, for both light and dark skin, have an ancient African origin. They likely arose in hominids like Homo erectus long before the dawn of our own species, and have coexisted in balance for hundreds and thousands of years. In many cases, the older variant is responsible for lighter skin, not darker. That’s consistent with an idea from Nina Jablonski, an anthropologist from Pennsylvania State University, who thinks that the ancient ancestors of humans—much like other primates—had pale skin. “As our ancestors moved out of the forest and into the savannah, they lost their hair and evolved darker skin,” says Nick Crawford, a researcher in Tishkoff’s lab."
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2018
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  37. Duncsquatch

    Duncsquatch Heed the call. Supporter

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    Thanks, that is great info.
     
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