made in China...are we vulnerable?

Discussion in 'Preparedness' started by Maurice 7, Jan 16, 2018.

  1. Maurice 7

    Maurice 7 Scout

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2017
    Messages:
    893
    Likes Received:
    3,288
    hi Folks,

    this is a sort of prepping, pro homesteading hand tools, crafts, make our homeland great again thought of me. But it came to me after years of bushcraft, my parents old ways and especially making home made projects and ordering the raw materials.
    I know it is common sense, but a very realistic discussion...

    In a conflict, disaster, economic problems scenario it is not so good to have so many things made in China.
    Our whole society runs on electronics. But alot of parts can ONLY come from China. Especially raw materials.
    The super markets run on electronic delivery scemes....
    Nearly all stainless steel now a days in made in China...
    There are more instances, but I think the electronics example is the most worrying.

    interesting video too:

    I am not like a full fan of Varg Vikerness. He lacks some sympathy and also is very biased towards Christians (not all are bad haha, ps I am one) etc. but he makes some good points on our vulnarable spots in modern society and economics. There are obvious also very good things going on. Also total downfall and barbarism as a solution to all...rather have smart n sincerypeople get smart and start running the show again...but that is beyond me...

    Like in my native country, we used to make clothes (boots too), stoves, one of the best wool blankets (AaBe brand, but several more), airplanes (Fokker is gone), cooking pans, tents, sleeping bags, electronics (Philips used to make all stuff here a long time ago). All gone! Like in the 50/ies almost nothing came out of China. We got stuff of nearbouring countries like France, Germany (most tools, knives axes etc from Solingen (all gone there too) and also USA (I have some GREAT usa tools, fishing gear, you name it).
    Outsourcing has gone way to far. (classic example of mammon)

    Maybe this discussion is boring. My aim is also not to scare. But if there are folks out there who want a even simpler life. Get back to standards in homesteading of pre 60/ies I think it is very sound

    My major respect here to the knife makers! woolen and canvas stuf makers Blacksmiths! Homesteaders! Bakers, carvers, builders you name it! This forum is sincere.

    what ya think? I am worrying too much? or thing have to change? Let me know down below.
     
  2. Knighthorse

    Knighthorse Guide

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2010
    Messages:
    1,181
    Likes Received:
    1,100
    I ususlly try to vote with my dollar as it were. I read where something is from before buying, and try to buy US made, or assembled. I try to avoid things made in countries that do the slave/child labor thing if US isn’t available. I might elaborate later, just getting ready for work now.
     
    Oakenhart, bosque bob, Sinjin and 4 others like this.
  3. xrayit

    xrayit Supporter Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2015
    Messages:
    1,019
    Likes Received:
    2,952
    Location:
    LITH Illinois
    It is much worse than just buying Chinese product from China, do a google search on US food production and you will see that China owns way more US food production than I feel comfortable with. Pretty good chance that pork chop you ate last night came from a Chinese owned company. The worry for me is not only that we have lost the ability to make things, we have lost the ability to feed the US population.

    http://www.takepart.com/article/2016/02/22/china-syngenta-smithfield
     
  4. Dualsport225

    Dualsport225 Scout

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2016
    Messages:
    361
    Likes Received:
    931
    My $.02: I behave the same way as far as voting with my dollar. It hurts financially, sometimes, but I do try to buy US. There are things I buy that can be inexpensive and/or imported - disposable stuff that I think is overpriced otherwise. My son (9 years old) gets mad at me when I won't let him buy flashy cheap Chinese knives. It's Buck or better, and they have to be US, at that. I don't point out too often that he's lucky he's buying knives at all...

    Knives, tools (especially tools - I buy every older Craftsman piece I see at garage sales so my son doesn't have to deal with lesser tools as he gets older), guitars, firearms, clothing when possible, boots, etc...

    It's not that "money is no object" for me at all, but I don't approve of US companies sending work overseas and keeping the profit while downgrading the quality and under-utilizing the domestic work force. The Chinese have had master craftsmen for way longer than there's BEEN a USA, but they're not the people our companies use to make the most profit for the least cost.

    Rant off, I need my first cup of coffee!

    Cheers

    You posted about the food while I was typing, and reminded me! I buy almost all our food locally to avoid that very issue. Almost everything we eat is grown and/or killed by somebody whose hand I've shaken. That means a lot to me. It's harder in the winter, but at least I can look for US grown and organic labels.
     
  5. Unistat76

    Unistat76 Nerd Supporter Bushclass I

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2012
    Messages:
    2,253
    Likes Received:
    5,839
    Location:
    SE Michigan
    Short answer: Yes.

    Longer answer: Probably not critically so. It is a myth that, in the moden era any country was ever independent from foreign material or supply. This includes America as we have only existed in the modern era (in some ways, we signified the start of it.)

    Not to get into geo-political economics, but trade must exist for the U.S. to exist. If China were to embargo or deny trade, there would still be secondary markets. If that dried up or became prohibitively expensive, well, wars are fought over these matters.

    Would it serve China to yank our chain a little with supply and prices? Maybe, if they wanted a concession on something else. We definitely play that game all the time.

    Would it serve China to risk a war? They would have to be awful desperate and I don't see anything in the near future that would drive them to that.

    You also have to look at the possibility that the U.S. would just find a new source, workaround, or technological innovation that would make China's supply obsolete. For an example of this, look at fracking and OPEC. They had the U.S. by the short hairs for so long some folks thought we could never get out from under their racket. Then, boom, fracking got cheap enough to compete. Now OPEC has to sell us cheaper oil or risk being replaced as a source.

    Anyway, that's my $0.02 worth.
     
    Oakenhart, rsnurkle, Haggis and 5 others like this.
  6. VtBlackDog

    VtBlackDog Supporter Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2009
    Messages:
    2,237
    Likes Received:
    2,162
    Location:
    Under the 14th Star
    Mora from Sweden, Bean boots from Maine, German Short Haired Pointer from Germany, Maple Syrup from right here in Vermont.....nothing to worry about!
     
    Oakenhart, ezra45, PMSteve and 4 others like this.
  7. Maurice 7

    Maurice 7 Scout

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2017
    Messages:
    893
    Likes Received:
    3,288
    Thanks for the input and perspectives brothers. Much appreciated.

    I started this thread before:

    https://bushcraftusa.com/forum/thre...n-the-usa-made-in-europe.191565/#post-3265026

    Also I vote with my euro's (with a very modest income)

    I still believe we are vulnerable. Trade always existed but the need for this current continuum is just too vulnerable.

    I agree that the food business is even dodgier then electronics. But electronics manage our food. And oil. Every agriculture machine runs on oil.

    Anyway long live the homestead n local trading.

    Ps I never owned anything made in USA I did not repect due to quality, economics in the long end and design. vintage stuff especially.

    Ps 2 we haven't discussed rare metals yet. Could also make or break our electronic life, production n distribution
     
  8. Vanitas

    Vanitas Supporter Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2013
    Messages:
    6,127
    Likes Received:
    5,725
    Location:
    New England
    Every major country is too interconnected at this point to want another to fail. Like it or not but China and the US are pretty much tied at the hip at this point. We did it to ourselves sending work over there, helping modernize factories and processes.
     
  9. Wasp

    Wasp We are GO for Sting! Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2014
    Messages:
    7,967
    Likes Received:
    31,699
    Location:
    Arkansas
    I remember years ago people in China were SO EXCITED that they were going to get a Walmart. Walmart finnal finished building, stocking, and then opened. People went in to shop and were really upset, there were no displays set up, it was mor like what sams is here, just sitting on a pallet or in stacked boxes.
    But the biggest thing they were upset about, everything was Made In China and POed doesn't describe the vibe I got reading the article. They wanted USA made goods and there were none. Even here some things are/were made in USA. Even people from China dont want Chineese goods.

    Electronics are a problem, but there are more ummmm, hard goods, that are made drom lesser qualities as well. We have become a throw away society and go with the lowest bidder, I'll bet most people dont even have anything worth handing down. What are you gonna give them, the wardrobe of particle board? It probably wont even make it through the truck ride/move.

    The US has tried to keep up with competition by making things cheaper than they can be imported, which is a downward spiral. Kinda sad these days. Warranties dont mean anything, good enough is...well good enough. People dont even expect quality anymore, or service. Fast, cheap, and temporary.

    Now I love US made goods, and try to buy whenever I can, but there are good things that come from other countries. Seiki Japan has awesome steel/metal products, Germany is known for various products, Swiss, etc.

    I like buying something that isn't necessarily valuable money wise, but is well built and I know it'll last. Sometimes I think its a romantic notion from my childhood qhere most people I knew had fewer things, but they were solid and were made to last generations of family rather than buying multiple per decade.

    Yes, it is something to be concearned about in regards to bushcraft/outdoor gear. If you notice its more than a trend with these like minded people. They like quality new gen items, and/or more rustic traditional and older gear. Yes theres cheaper (read frugal) items in the mix which actually makes sense, because your core gear needs to be solid, but some things not so much.
     
  10. Bobsdock

    Bobsdock Guide

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2017
    Messages:
    2,059
    Likes Received:
    11,094
    Location:
    Shell knob mo.
    This is the reason I started bush crafting to begin with. As @Wasp said above we have become a throw away society. And I know many people that really don't know how to do anything.
    Consumers and user upers.
    If it's broke don't even try to fix it.
    Throw it away and buy new.
    I don't understand this mentality.
    But apparently it is this mentality that drives a large part of are economy.
    And IMO we have already set are selfs up for failure.
    It's simply a matter of time !
     
    Oakenhart, LarryB, OrienM and 3 others like this.
  11. Wasp

    Wasp We are GO for Sting! Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2014
    Messages:
    7,967
    Likes Received:
    31,699
    Location:
    Arkansas
    Well in fairness I guess, most of it isn't worth fixing. Ask TV ex-repairmen why they had to shut down, tvs last a few years and you buy a new one for less than a part costs. Even name brand is that way. Cars are no different for most consumers. Try to repair a particle board TV entertainment center, it aint pretty. :)

    I know why here, but do you think Joe Sunday would try to straighten or rehandle the Mora knife they use for fishing or utility?

    This rolls into other aspects of society too, but thsts a different topic really.
     
  12. HeadyBrew

    HeadyBrew Supporter Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2012
    Messages:
    3,952
    Likes Received:
    4,620
    Location:
    Western NY
    I have some thoughts on this but for now will say that the problem of poor quality and flood of Chinese made goods is completely out own fault as consumers. We (and when I say we I mean in a very broad, collective sense) demand cheap. We demand availability in so far as we want what we want and we want it now not next week.

    If you want higher quality you have to be willing to pay for it. But most are not. They want cheap and “good enough” (which usually isn’t even that). This goes for products as well as the way we get them.

    People, especially those that work in retail, decry the death of brick and mortar stores and Mom and Pop shops. They whine about it while filling their amazon cart apparently oblivious to their own contributions to retail’s death.

    We demand companies produce products in this country but then complain at the wages the workers demand (deserve) to produce these things which drives up costs which are passed on to the consumer. We complain that robots are taking jobs. Capitalism dictates that companies look for ways to grow and be profitable. If they want us to keep buying their products they need to compete and to do that they will look for any way to bring down costs. You can claim that greed is a part of it, sure. But we’re greedy for the best possible deals.

    We (again in the broad, collective sense) drove industry overseas. We drove quality down. And we did it to get the cheapest car/ clothes/ electronics/ whatever. We are to blame as far as I’m concerned.

    My $0.02 for what little it’s worth.
     
  13. Cascadian

    Cascadian Scout

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2017
    Messages:
    927
    Likes Received:
    4,621
    Location:
    N Oregon coast
    Trade or war. Take your pick.
     
  14. Oni

    Oni Scout

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2012
    Messages:
    738
    Likes Received:
    658
    Location:
    So Cal
    I buy made in USA as much as possible, or one of our allies.

    Flag, Grace Alley. Can’t fathom flying the American flag that was made in China.

    Most of my knives and multi tools made in the USA. Emerson, Strider, CRK, Beck, Leatherman...

    Airguns, made in the USA.

    Most powder burners made in USA.

    Don’t go to AMC theaters (China owned), buy Smithfield products (China owned).

    Sometimes have to pay a little more...but ‘Merica!
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2018
    Oakenhart, Gman1051, Haggis and 2 others like this.
  15. CharClothed

    CharClothed Guide

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2016
    Messages:
    2,039
    Likes Received:
    4,819
    Location:
    Michigan
    If it works, it works. No matter where it's from, I'll use it as long as it works and doesn't break. I'm fine with the outsourcing.
     
  16. NJStricker

    NJStricker Supporter Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2010
    Messages:
    1,780
    Likes Received:
    2,733
    Location:
    Ohio
    The events leading to the American Revolutionary War included taxation on trade goods--tea, molasses, and rum, among others. Independence wasn't fought just for independence' sake--it was economic independence, which it appears we've walked away from.
     
    Oni, Oakenhart, LarryB and 2 others like this.
  17. Rarrapuda

    Rarrapuda Supporter Supporter Bushcraft Friend

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2015
    Messages:
    767
    Likes Received:
    3,019
    Location:
    Ohio
    What's funny is that SOME of the things people buy from overseas are actually cheaper and better made than the USA version.
     
  18. Cascadian

    Cascadian Scout

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2017
    Messages:
    927
    Likes Received:
    4,621
    Location:
    N Oregon coast
    I believe you're conflating taxes with trade.

    With voluntary trade, both parties are better off.

    Taxes impede trade.

    And as I said: trade or war -- take your pick.

    Your point supports mine.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2018
    Oakenhart, Haggis and Unistat76 like this.
  19. Cascadian

    Cascadian Scout

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2017
    Messages:
    927
    Likes Received:
    4,621
    Location:
    N Oregon coast
    Translation: "Made in Japan".
     
  20. Badey

    Badey Supporter Supporter Bushclass I Bushclass II

    Blog Posts:
    3
    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2014
    Messages:
    5,092
    Likes Received:
    22,348
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Maybe in this modern example, but the two were inseparable during the 1770s. The Tea Act gave the East India Company a monopoly on all tea trade in America. Included in this bill was a tax on all tea shipped to America by the Tea Act.

    Also, the Navigation Acts, which ruffled quite a few feathers during the 1600s and 1700s made it illegal for the colonies to purchase trade goods from most European nations (other than Great Britain) - this was one of the causes of political unrest in the colonies.

    However, this isn't exactly comparable to today's trade issues with China. Also, I think trade relations with China make it harder for China to be militarily aggressive toward us (since it would be like killing the goose who lays their golden egg). But, it also makes us more pliable to their wishes as well (since they could cripple us with sanctions, not to mention the 3.1 trillion in US bonds they own).
     
    Oakenhart, Chazzle, rsnurkle and 4 others like this.
  21. Cascadian

    Cascadian Scout

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2017
    Messages:
    927
    Likes Received:
    4,621
    Location:
    N Oregon coast
    Exactly. Voluntary trade leaves both parties better off. Countries that trade tend not to fight; if they do, they'll be worse off.

    Taxing or otherwise hobbling voluntary exchange only does harm, war being the greatest harm.

    Trade or war -- take your pick.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2018
  22. Cascadian

    Cascadian Scout

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2017
    Messages:
    927
    Likes Received:
    4,621
    Location:
    N Oregon coast
    “If you owe your bank a hundred pounds, you have a problem. But if you owe a million, it has.”

    ― John Maynard Keynes
     
  23. Badey

    Badey Supporter Supporter Bushclass I Bushclass II

    Blog Posts:
    3
    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2014
    Messages:
    5,092
    Likes Received:
    22,348
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    I'm not a big proponent of Keynesian economics (I think it is demonstrable that it prolonged the Great Depression rather than ending it). If China dumps our bonds, sure, they'll take a hit. However, we'll take a bigger one (I believe it would cause an economic collapse that make the Great Depression look like a Bull Market).
     
  24. Cascadian

    Cascadian Scout

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2017
    Messages:
    927
    Likes Received:
    4,621
    Location:
    N Oregon coast
    @Badey, I'll raise you. I am a huge opponent of Keynesian economics. (Don't even get me started on Keynes.)

    I wholeheartedly agree that Keynesian nostrums prolonged the Great Depression, AND created our current Greatest Depression (that few are even aware of).

    We are going to take a big hit, China notwithstanding. And the financial hurricane will be global.

    All the World's (Fake) Money & Markets
     
  25. City Bushcrafter

    City Bushcrafter Hooah! Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2017
    Messages:
    1,224
    Likes Received:
    6,374
    Location:
    South of "the South"
    The USA/China relationship does not stop at goods. I work in IT. Permanent positions in my company are no longer being created. Instead they are bringing Chinese developers to staff projects and pack them like sardines 5 to a small 2 bedroom apartment. I'm sure they are stealing all our intellectual property in the process. From talking to them, the cost of living is lower here than in China. It's funny to see them go back home with their suitcases full of Chinese products purchased here in the US.
    I would think that at this point they need us to consume for their economy to continue. I don't think they will bite the hand that feeds them. On the other hand, I would think we could get the goods we need manufactured in other places like India, Mexico, Taiwan, Central and South American Countries, etc... if we really needed to.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2018
  26. NJStricker

    NJStricker Supporter Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2010
    Messages:
    1,780
    Likes Received:
    2,733
    Location:
    Ohio
    Yes, as was my intent. We went to war to have the ability to trade, freely. But my fear is that we've become so economically dependent upon one trade/manufacturing party that freedom has been lost, to a degree. But, you could likely say that about any trade agreement--there is some dependency upon the other, otherwise there is no need for trade.
     
    Oakenhart, Maurice 7 and Badey like this.
  27. Cascadian

    Cascadian Scout

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2017
    Messages:
    927
    Likes Received:
    4,621
    Location:
    N Oregon coast
    Damn them for sending us inexpensive goods in high demand while we send them IOU-nothings!

    (And then we won't let them spend their accumulated IOUs in the US dollar store.)
     
    Swarvegorilla likes this.
  28. ozarkhunter

    ozarkhunter Guide

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2014
    Messages:
    1,052
    Likes Received:
    3,230
    I recently heard from a trusted financial adviser (daily radio program) that, taking into account the cost of living, the earnings of the average U.S. citizen have not increased since the 1970's. That might also be a contributing factor as to why so many try to buy as cheap as they can.
     
    Scrubs, Oakenhart, Maurice 7 and 2 others like this.
  29. NJStricker

    NJStricker Supporter Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2010
    Messages:
    1,780
    Likes Received:
    2,733
    Location:
    Ohio
    Inexpensive goods made with poorly paid workers and lax if not questionable environmental laws. Maybe we're getting the better end of the deal after all.
     
    Swarvegorilla likes this.
  30. Seacapt.

    Seacapt. Supporter Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2014
    Messages:
    6,233
    Likes Received:
    13,581
    Location:
    Maine
    Don't blame the Chinese blame the folks here in the U.S. that have been brain washed to take the easy way out because the age old ethic of doing what you can for yourself has been deleted from history.
     
  31. TrespassersWilliam

    TrespassersWilliam Supporter Supporter Bushcraft Friend

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2013
    Messages:
    637
    Likes Received:
    1,721
    Location:
    NH
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2018
    Guillaume Longval and Maurice 7 like this.
  32. OutnBacker

    OutnBacker Guide

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2013
    Messages:
    1,312
    Likes Received:
    2,369
    Location:
    Washington State
    I postulate the following scenario:

    China and the US are indeed joined at the hip right now. But, they won't be by 2050, IMO. China has more middle class consumers than we have in total population, and that trend in buying power will continue. As we have so well educated so many Chinese in capitalism, so we have opened the bottle, allowing the genie out - never to to be put back in. Innovation will continue to be a strong suit in the US, but may be dwarfed by China. Once they have enough consumers to absorb their own products, our consumers will be less valuable as a source of income. The US will likely become economically diluted by the millions of poor people it has allowed in, and the domestic workforce is shrinking, thus all the foreign workers at Microsoft, et al.

    Also, China cannot for the foreseeable future go head to head with the US military, so they bide their time, waiting for our navy to rust and deteriorate. Meanwhile they play a two-faced game of strategy in the South China Sea by building those fortified islands and threatening every country in the Far East. At the same time, they keep a hold on the leash that restricts, for now, their pitbull N.Korea. Eventually, when we are weakened by deficits and political impotency, and we can't deploy 2/3 of our armed forces, they will make a play for Taiwan and dare us to respond while they threaten to unleash the little dwarf in Pyongyang.

    We will capitulate and history will turn on a dime. We will have no choice. Japan and S. Korea will go into a state of economic collapse as will the US. We sold our birthright a generation ago for cheap shoes and microwaves, and threw out the baby with the bath water at Woodstock.
     
  33. Cascadian

    Cascadian Scout

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2017
    Messages:
    927
    Likes Received:
    4,621
    Location:
    N Oregon coast
    Defaulting on the US dollar in 1933 and 1971 were the lethal blows. The rest are merely death throes.
     
    OutnBacker likes this.
  34. Cascadian

    Cascadian Scout

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2017
    Messages:
    927
    Likes Received:
    4,621
    Location:
    N Oregon coast
    Hear, hear.

    People forget how shabbily the Chinese were treated during the Opium Wars, and about the horrors that followed in their wake.

    And no one forced the US to corrupt its currency, and plunge $20 trillion into socialist debt.

    It is awesome that a humble little community like BushcraftUSA is making some microscopic attempt to resuscitate a sense of self-reliance and personal responsibility.
     
  35. NJStricker

    NJStricker Supporter Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2010
    Messages:
    1,780
    Likes Received:
    2,733
    Location:
    Ohio
    Things aren't entirely doom and gloom. China's population keeps growing, as does India's. They can't feed themselves. Population growth vs. food production rates for the next 25 years, globally, looks pretty scary. We'll be in a better position to feed China, with some competition from S. America and parts of Africa.
     
  36. BushcrafterAU

    BushcrafterAU Bushman Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2017
    Messages:
    178
    Likes Received:
    694
    Location:
    Australia
    You missed Opinel of France, Bic lighters of France, Victorinox of Switzerland, Leatherman of USA, Fallkniven of Sweden, Fiskars X series of Finland, Gransfors Bruks, Hults Bruk.........Gerber of China...
    -BushcrafterAU
     
  37. Coryphene

    Coryphene Guide

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2014
    Messages:
    3,992
    Likes Received:
    12,430
    Location:
    Chapel Hill, NC
    Well the vulnerabilities are for China as well.

    When we entered WW2, we were the 14th strongest world power but we had a tremendous manufacturing capacity which we turned into the world's largest war machine. Since the 80s, we have been outsourcing our manufacturing capacity to China in a race to the bottom for cheap labor. So if a war were to break out and China chose to support the opposing side, we'd be hard pressed to restart our war machine once our stockpile has run out along with many other things. HOWEVER, if China chose to support a smaller country like N. Korea and Russia, the Chinese economy would collapse overnight as they depend on the US and Europe to buy their goods. Russia and N.Korea can't buy enough goods to prop up their economy. We would probably shift our low cost manufacturing base to India as they will very soon have more people than China. China cares much more about their economy than they care about the little bit of coal they get from N. Korea. N. Korea has the GDP of Birmingham, Alabama. They can't make up the loss in trade from Europe and NA.

    China does supply the vast majority of rare earth materials used in electronics and motors. That is just due to their cheap price China imposes. If any other company in the world tries to develop a mine and refineries for the ore, China dumps theirs to force the other companies out of business. It isn't because all the raw materials are found in China, it is because China controls the price. Rare earth materials are not actually rare, they are just called that.
     
    Maurice 7 likes this.
  38. Woods Walker

    Woods Walker Rattlesnake Charmer. Supporter Bushclass I

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    10,426
    Likes Received:
    14,733
    Location:
    Konnecticut
    That's why I prep. So after the disaster I am not looking for stuff made in China or the USA cuz already got it. Though to be honest my prepping was weak sauce this year. One 40lb bag of rice and 4 Glock mags. It was enough to satisfy "Prepper Claus" but will prep more this year. As for gear I kinda got everything.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2018
    Oakenhart and Maurice 7 like this.
  39. Midwest.Bushlore

    Midwest.Bushlore Supporter Supporter Bushcraft Friend

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2017
    Messages:
    1,455
    Likes Received:
    4,480
    I won't attempt to try to boil a complex issue down to a single forum post so I'll ignore the politics stuff for now. No wise country would ever want to cut off trade with other countries! Do we want a nuclear armed nation of 1.3 billion people to undergo an economic collapse? No, better to trade- but hopefully on better terms. There is some extraordinarily high quality stuff made in China! Per capita there a lot more skilled woodworkers in China than in the US, for obvious reasons. Parts of China are very technical and advanced but large swaths are still basically at a pre-Industrial level. Many folks there are only one generation removed from the days when everything was made by hand! Hence their relatively large population of skilled craftsmen. The issue is price! Recently a US speaker company was buying speaker cabinets from China- really stunning cabinets, too! I mean, you couldn't touch them if they were made in the US, the price would be outrageous. Real furniture-grade stuff. IF companies really wanted to they could have very high grade stuff made in China, it just takes more work and oversight.

    But that's the problem! US consumers (by and large) have become accustomed to cheap and disposable. So outsourcing seems to be used in a race to the bottom quality-wise in order to be cheap. Every corner is cut. The quality is reduced to the point where it's just barely acceptable, but "good enough" for most.

    We howl about wanting American-made stuff and we want jobs to stay in the US but then we vote for the opposite with our wallets. If us consumers cared about quality more than price then the pendulum would swing the other way.

    For my own part I try to buy imported stuff where it makes sense, from places known for certain things. It may be cliche but the French make great wine, the Swiss make great knives, watches, clocks, etc. The Germans make outstanding guns and cars. It makes sense to trade with countries for things they're very good at.

    On the other hand, try to buy a water bottle that's completely made in the US! I don't think it can even be done. It's really hard to buy American sometimes since many things don't have an American-made option at any price.
     
    Dualsport225 likes this.
  40. Maurice 7

    Maurice 7 Scout

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2017
    Messages:
    893
    Likes Received:
    3,288
    This!

    It's also this mentality. Wisdom, care, crafts, attitude, belief and effort/action.

    Again I really like this community

    litte addition:
    - China can become instable from within.

    An a local historical addition:
    - My great parents were still farmers. The son (grand parent) went and worked at the Fokker airplane industry plant but kept gardening for vegetables and went fishing. (no tv and internet back then).

    The village I live in now, back in the 1920/30/40/5050 and earlier on, the local coalminers nearly all had a patch of vegetable garden, either in the perimiter of the village or the back garden. Vegetables were there, chickens but also a pig.
    Around the coalminers villagers the Agricultural activities were more small scale then now but much more diversity. So now its 100% meat and milk cows, but then also vegetable, food grain (human consumption food grain), fruit, local cheese n sausage production you name it.
    Almost eveyone in the 20,30,40, 50-ies could chop wood, grow vegetables, handle a shovel, their were local forges, woodworkers, sharpen a knife, built a fire, repair stuff, had firewood under a roof, a woodstove, could repair cloting by hand (and had the tools) built a shep, had an axe, knife, cordage and saw in the toolbox.


    thanks for reading!
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2018
    Oakenhart, Kreger and Haggis like this.
  41. RickWA

    RickWA Supporter Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2016
    Messages:
    1,108
    Likes Received:
    5,094
    Location:
    Spokane, WA
    Who would ever think of buying any of that cheap, useful junk from over there?

    [​IMG]

    :rolleyes:


    Made in the USA is best!

    [​IMG]

    Uhm... well... that is... yeah...
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2018
  42. arleigh

    arleigh Guide

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2015
    Messages:
    2,296
    Likes Received:
    5,011
    Location:
    southern california
    Planned obsolescence has been around for 60+years starting with the US companies deciding to make things so cheap it was no longer practical to fix . I have watched this since I was a kid.
    Science and Mechanics magazine back then featured an article on Briggs and Stratton engines being made throw away, in place of the completely rebuildable ones in service .
    This provided an aluminum block in place of cast iron .
    .Though other engine companies held on to their iron blocks they struggled with economic survival because unsuspecting customers did not know how to read , except the big lettering , and misleading warranty claims .
    There is a lot of false advertising that is not Being dealt with and people without any knowledge of what they are doing buy into .
    It seem many advertisers don't even know the product they are attempting to describe, or they deliberately omit pertinent information.
    We have so many things we don't even know how they work , that , IMO is a very poor epitaph on modern man .
    This modern generation do not even realize how pathetic they are .
    It is sites like this that are a ray of hope for the future that people will dare to learn things .
     
  43. Jason10mm

    Jason10mm Supporter Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    May 5, 2017
    Messages:
    86
    Likes Received:
    255
    Another consideration is the devastation to the Chinese ecology. Think about all the waste from those plastic factories, the high level of smog in their cities. Even if we could lower the cost of labor in the US (or automate it) would we accept the environmental damage that comes from lots of manufacturing and mining? I think the "grand plan", if there is such a thing, is to try to suck the some areas (i.e the middle east, asia, and Africa) dry while preserving our resources as much as possible.

    Or we'll just be in a war with Russia, Europe, and Canada over now thawed out arctic resources.....
     
  44. PMSteve

    PMSteve Old Timey Outdoorsman Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    6
    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2010
    Messages:
    7,881
    Likes Received:
    8,116
    Location:
    Relocated to Salt Lake City from Nevada
    I've seen a lot of crap come out of China, especially several years ago. I've also seen some quality gear from there as well.

    Much depends upon the standards of the company having the gear made. If they have high standards, they get good quality, but at a price.

    I *mostly* buy USA but sometimes foreign products are simply better than USA made. I'm thinking Toyota, Nissan, etc. The best motorcycle I've ever owned was a Honda.

    As far as food... I buy cheap. When I see milk for $2.99 a gallon along side of $1.65, I'll buy the cheaper. I mean, it's MILK. How bad can the cheaper milk be than the Viva brand? The same goes for eggs and other basics that the provider can't really screw up.

    At Walmart, I've found that their "Great Value" store brand, actually is very good quality stuff. I'm now living on a fixed income, so I have to pinch a few pennies here and there.

    Steve
     
  45. Chazzle

    Chazzle Wandering Teacher Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    May 24, 2012
    Messages:
    1,503
    Likes Received:
    1,191
    Location:
    Missouri
    America has stopped being a producer long ago. We have to teach our kids the value of a dollar, how to make things! Grow a garden, make cordage, make soap, raise chickens, repair a ripped seam on some jeans....it's all about cultivating a mindset. I loved listening to my grandmother tell stories of life during the Great Depression.
     
  46. WoodGnome

    WoodGnome Woodgnome Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2013
    Messages:
    1,040
    Likes Received:
    796
    Location:
    Germany, Swabian Jura
    "Made in Germany" was introduced to point out goods of German making after WW2. It should save people from buying stuff of minor quality - German stuff so to speak.
    Didn't turn out as planned. The goods were not of minor quality, on the contrary, they actually even set standards. This is what caused the economic boom of the 50s here. Now the same thing is happening with China. For a very long time, everybody was looking down on China for their low production quality. But they got better and better. Soon, they will be setting the standards and we, the so-called inndustrial nations are going to be taught one or two hard lessons.

    Nonetheless, this is how things go in a world that is based on economics, which basically meas nothing but that a limited amount of money is shifted from one party to another in exchange for labour or goods. While in the 19th and 20th century natural resources were essential, this has shifted to service and production during the secons half of the 20t century and China has the manpower and will soon have the know-how to become the leader of it all.

    Now we can dislike that but we won't change it, because it qon't matter if you buy local goods or not, there is not one modern machine which doesn't have at least parts of Chinese making.
    And economywise this of course will lead to lean years but we wouldn't be complaining if we were the ones making the profit. So after all, it's just evolution.
     
    Oakenhart, Kreger and OrienM like this.
  47. icemanx722

    icemanx722 Supporter Supporter Bushcraft Friend

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2016
    Messages:
    868
    Likes Received:
    5,449
    Location:
    Iowa
    Interesting video
     
  48. Survive

    Survive Scout

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2011
    Messages:
    876
    Likes Received:
    7
    Location:
    Canadian - eh!
    Have ordered stuff directly from China before and the enclosed pamphlet said "Made in USA". So labels are not everything. Will not always be clear as to what the origin of a product is.
     
    Kreger likes this.
  49. Knighthorse

    Knighthorse Guide

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2010
    Messages:
    1,181
    Likes Received:
    1,100
    Haven’t verified it, but I have heard there is a tiny area in China named USA, without periods in the title. May explain made in USA and not U.S.A. Might have a look when I get bored to find out.
     
    Kreger likes this.
  50. Sinjin

    Sinjin Firebrand Supporter Bushclass I

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2016
    Messages:
    554
    Likes Received:
    2,260
    Location:
    Florida, Soon to be Oregon
    In my opinion, to go along with almost all of you... Yes try to buy made in USA. But there are some very good products from china, and other countries on the outsourcing train. Price is obviously the main indicator here. If you buy a known quality product that was made in china, there is no difference in my opinion from that product and a made in USA one, except of course the benefit of supporting our own countries economy. There are still very skilled craftsmen and women in China, and other countries.

    The worst part of the outsourcing dilemma is that now American goods are no longer common man. To be a modern craftsman, use american made tools and produce quality goods (of course this is with exception) you need to have a solid income to afford US made tools and products. USA made tools are no longer the "Standard" they are almost a novelty item at this point.
     
    Oakenhart and Kreger like this.

Share This Page