my bare bones, get you out of a jam- shelter kit

Discussion in 'Shelter' started by mtwarden, Oct 27, 2015.

  1. Moondog55

    Moondog55 Guide

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    If a runner is using a hydration pack then the sit-pad is already taken care of as they can sit on the pack, but I do think it is necessary in some form or other if at all possible. Most runners are on the lean side so it doesn't need to be very big
     
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  2. mtwarden

    mtwarden roaming the Big Sky Supporter

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    I've got some really thin (1/8") ccf that a 20x20" chunk I can roll into the size of a soda can, scored in sections and custom cut for the pack doesn't take a ton of room either, more room than a trash bag though :)
     
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  3. The Woodsrunner

    The Woodsrunner Bush Nerd Hobbyist

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    Bingo! Now I know what the Grabber Sportsmans blanket is for. A scout fire. Like those thick reusable space blanket tarps, but with a hood in one corner and two pockets in the adjoining corners for your hands.
     
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  4. The Woodsrunner

    The Woodsrunner Bush Nerd Hobbyist

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    I have an idea for an emergency shelter system. It should be somewhere in the realm of a MEST, but with a tube sewn in the ends to make a gathered end hammock, with a hood like a poncho, but on the side so it doesn't compromise the poncho capabilities. I need to figure out a way to integrate the reflectiveness of a space blanket.

    Btw, awesome kit! I would be a bit worried about the condensation of the space blanket poncho though...
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2015
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  5. mtwarden

    mtwarden roaming the Big Sky Supporter

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    thanks! yup- the Grabber with the hood is ideal for this application :)

    there is definitely going to be some condensation, but it's the lesser of two evils (the other being exposure :4:)

    you might be able to mitigate it a little if things get too damp by opening up the poncho slightly now and again
     
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  6. Montrealman

    Montrealman Tracker

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    This is an awesome thread. I have learned much from reading it.

    Someone mentioned a photon microlight. I like them, very inexpensive, however feel that an LED with a watchbattery is better for 3 reasons.

    One, it is even more minimalist and cheaper than the microlite

    Two, the LEDs can be ordered from aliexpress at $14 per 1000 LEDs. This is enough LEDs that I put them (and a watch battery) into every kit that I create.

    Three, we give them to our scouts each year for their survival kits. The batteries last for close to 1OO hours, so we pretend not to notice when the kids have a great time with them.

    Here's a pic:
    http://www.google.ca/search?q=led+a...hUKEwitssjlmoHKAhWIVD4KHfIMBTAQ_AUIBw#mhpiv=0[​IMG]
     
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  7. Moondog55

    Moondog55 Guide

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    Perhaps Guy could put the bare bones of this kit as an item in the Bushcraft Store?
    The poncho and the survival bag together
    http://www.surviveoutdoorslonger.com/survive-outdoors-longer-survival-poncho.html
    +
    http://www.surviveoutdoorslonger.com/survival-1/shelter/survive-outdoors-longer-emergency-bivvy.html
    For more money and more bulk and weight the breathable bivvy would give you a second nite perhaps as clothes would stay drier although I've not tried that item myself
    http://www.surviveoutdoorslonger.com/survival-1/shelter/survive-outdoors-longer-escape-bivvy.html
    The poncho on its own tho is the best bang for buck product I have seen given the constraints of the original post
     
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  8. Montrealman

    Montrealman Tracker

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    I really like the concept of a bare bones kit for someone that doesn't want to carry anything at all.

    It doesn't sound very comfortable, however if you are fortunate to be in an area where you can combine this idea with a debris shelter and a nearby fire, the tarp and candle could be that little extra that makes you very comfortable.
     
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  9. Medic17

    Medic17 Supporter Supporter Bushcraft Friend Bushclass I

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    I might have missed it but how flammable are the HeatSheets?
    What would happen if you touched it with the candle flame?


    Would it melt just a little hole or would the whole thing go up?
     
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  10. Gruntinhusaybah

    Gruntinhusaybah Supporter Supporter Bushclass I

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    That could become very problematic if moisture is involved. That pack could soak through and they'd be worse off. A CCF sit pad is almost no weight penalty, they're quite small, and will not soak through.

    Heat sheet+flame=bad day.
    image.jpg

    image.jpg

    That's from DIRECT contact of the flame from a bic lighter. It caught fire and started to burn, with the flame very close but not touching it started to melt.

    I think a candle between your legs with one wrapped around you would be fine though. I had to get the flame within an inch to get it to start melting.

    Another option is adding an Opinel, about an ounce and $8 and could be used to get boughs for extra insulation.

    I rummage through my wife's cosmetics every once in awhile to look for good size containers to re use, some of the tins that stuff comes in would make for a great long burn candle. They're about 4-6" tall and about an 1-2" diameter, melt some beeswax and put some cotton/jute twine in the middle and you've got yourself a candle that will easily last through a night.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2016
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  11. Moondog55

    Moondog55 Guide

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    Most if not all of those hydration packs already use a thin aluminised CCF pad in the back, it stops the water from getting warm due to the runners body heat; you just slip the water bladder out before you sit on it and there is usually room for an extra as well, adding in a 3mm pad extra is a good idea but you have to think about it, most runners [ I used to run] never consider the possibility of not making it home
    My own thinking is that the hydration pack is the easiest way to get the kit together and persuade people to run with it
     
  12. The Woodsrunner

    The Woodsrunner Bush Nerd Hobbyist

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    Ever since mtwardens OP, I have had a project rolling around in my head. It involves a cloak/poncho made out of a Grabber Reusable Space Blanket (yeah, I know, they make one with a hood and such and all that. Same concept different design) BUT with a thin, finely woven layer of 100% wool laminated onto the inside. That would provide not only insulation, but insulation even when wet and all that. It would insulate you from touching the cold space blanket. And it would also provide protection against heat and sparks resulting from a candle or small twig fire that you would be hunched over. That is my thinking anyways
     
  13. PMSteve

    PMSteve Old Timey Outdoorsman Supporter

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    When I was a Copper/LEO and walking the business district at night during the winter, I'd get terribly cold, especially my legs and feet.

    I can't remember where I got the idea, but I tried wearing women's pantyhose beneath my slacks. I couldn't believe the difference! I ended up buying a few pair and cutting out the crotch in front for 'convenience'. The look on my wife's face when she saw me getting ready to go to work, though, was priceless. She still brings it up to embarrass me from time to time, it really did work well, though. My only worry was being shot or seriously injured on duty and have someone else undress me for medical treatment...

    As for the cold feet... I went to the grocery store and talked the butcher shop manager into giving me a few of the large styrofoam trays that they use to package meat. I cut them into insoles and slipped them into my boots. They insulated my feet from the frozen ground. A pair of these last about a week of daily use. They weigh nothing and could go into a pocket or pack without notice until needed.

    Steve
     
  14. PMSteve

    PMSteve Old Timey Outdoorsman Supporter

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    Rather than using a closed-cell foam pad, why not cut a piece of Reflectix to size. Lighter weight and has the reflective property of a space blanket. I used to use this as a sit pad when calling coyotes. I covered mine with some duct tape to eliminate 'flash' when hunting. That wouldn't be necessary for just a sit pad.

    Steve
     
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  15. S.Decker

    S.Decker Supporter Supporter

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    Won't the heat melt the plastic container?
    Never used one, that's why I'm asking.
     
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  16. S.Decker

    S.Decker Supporter Supporter

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    I used to wear pantyhose under my jeans, when I rode horses. They keep you from getting chafed. I could ride all day, and not look like I'd been riding a greased pig.
     
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  17. Slib

    Slib Tracker

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    You have to make sure you center the candle...and use a large container. It can melt the plastic though. an alternative is a tin filed with either PJ or Crisco. That'd work well.
     
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  18. rio grande

    rio grande Tracker

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    My son and I ad to hunker down a night in the mountains near Santa Fe, NM.
    Was supposed to be a day trip, but got caught up in a hail and lightning storm, slightly wet, getting dark. Ate some trail mix and sat together under a tarp. Had a gi sleep pad to sit on, old school. Got to shivering but then remembered the 8 hour candle. Amazing that candle warmed us up enough to stop the shivering completely.
    Some poor choices (left too late to make it up and down, not enough gear) and some good (tarp/pad/candles/food).
    Hard to avoid nodding off (fire danger), so I later picked up the UCO single candle lantern (and beeswax candle). Adds a bit of weight though, over just the candle.
    If not needed to stay warm the candle adds a bit of ambiance to any scene.
     
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  19. mtwarden

    mtwarden roaming the Big Sky Supporter

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    nice to have a real world report- thanks!
     
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  20. bumma

    bumma LEAP...the net will appear Supporter

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    20170512_142759-1.jpg
    20170512_142958-1.jpg
    My setup lives in the day pack.
    2 hand warmers
    A mylar blanket
    A very thin poncho
    An XL mylar sheet to be used as a tarp

    All fits in a sandwich bag. That fits in a gallon plastic bag with a wool cap and a pair of mittens. Together they should get me thru an uncomfortable night.
     
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  21. Moe M.

    Moe M. Supporter Supporter Bushcraft Friend

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    This is a great thread to get people thinking about "what if", one should be aware however that while something looks good on paper or in theory it may not work as well as expected when put to the test in an actual survival situation.
    As a life long hunter, fisherman, and camper I always worried about "what if" I got lost, was injured, fell sick and couldn't make it back to my truck or camp, and so I carried those things that I thought would ensure my making it through a cold night in the "big" woods.
    Back a long time ago when the internet was fairly new I stumbled across a web site called Hood's Woods, it was run by a retired military recon grunt who picked up his skills the hard way, Ron Hood was not a wantabe survival instructor, he walked the walk, one thing that he stressed and practiced was real minimalist survival, he'd go out with his wife Karen for long weekends with nothing more than a large trash bag, a gallon zip lock bag, a pocket knife, and matches or a lighter.
    Ron's skills enabled them to get by well enough to survive and sometimes thrive, they "cooked" water by UV light in a zip lock, trapped rodents and ate bugs, and sheltered in the trash bags, I learned allot by following the Hoods on their adventures and by taking their advice, I carried their version of a minimalist survival kit for several years on my own hunting and out back fishing trips.
    Then one day, caught in a large cedar swamp, in a freak storm in the beginning of November in the big woods bordering Maine and Canada the realization came to me that I wasn't going to make it out by dark, I was going to spend at least one night alone in that swamp.
    I was about to learn one of my hardest lessons yet from Ron Hood, and that was that, a trash bag, a gallon zip lock bag, matches and a knife were not going to cut it in this emergency, I was cold, my cloths were wet from the half a foot of snow that had fallen in just a few short hours, the matches, even in the match safe were damp with condensation, and the woods were wet.
    What I did have going for me was not panicing, I found some dry tinder, one good match, and some pine sqaw wood and got a fire going, but I was dehydrated, had no food, and my hands were numb from the cold, and worse, my mind wasn't working right.
    I really don't think I'd have survived that night with the little I had in that kit, as it turned out my hunting partners fired up the snow machines when I didn't get back to camp before dark and started looking for me in the area they knew I had planned to hunt, it was a couple of hours after dark when they spotted my fire and found me.
    My point in writing this overly long post is to advise, if the weather is mild and dry, you might get by with a small lightweight pocket survival kit, but if it starts to storm, if it turns cold, if you have no way of hydrating, you will be in trouble.
    I'm not going suggest what to carry, you're all adults, but what I do suggest is that once you've settled on a kit, take yourself out and spend a night in the wild with nothing more than your kit, and if you're feeling brave, do it in the cold and wet.
    I'll bet you a dozen donuts that you'll be adjusting what you carry in your kit the very next day.
     
  22. arleigh

    arleigh Guide

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    I remember when space blankets and tube tents were the rage.
    Tried both , and all they are good for is the illusion of wind shielding .
    In the real world if you have the opportunity to equip correctly ,do it correctly. Short changing ones self , especially if it is an emergency, isn't the time to be cheap. if you can't or haven't been consuming the calories to keep warm ,lacking good insulation won't compensate much with plastic film.
    I've been in plenty of situations ,only the right tools make the difference between survival a death. would you pick a plastic snow shovel for getting you car unstuck in an ice berm ? that's the way people pack.
    IMO , if you care about the people around you, pick tools that are sure to do the job, in the worst scenario. you might be there longer than you think.
    Remember back a while ago a kid was stuck for days, dangling with his hand in a rock . he might have died there , know how he got free ?
     
  23. Moe M.

    Moe M. Supporter Supporter Bushcraft Friend

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    It's one thing to have a sound survival kit, it's another thing to know how to use it in an emergency, in my previous post I mentioned my minimalist survival kit, I carried it for a couple of years secure in the fact that if I got into trouble I had enough to survive, what I learned that day was, I wasn't Ron Hood, I didn't have his advanced skills or experience, what worked well for him didn't work at all for me.
    Another thing that I'm much more aware of today is pre packaged survival and medical kits, in the past I've made up my own first aid kits, they tend to be minimalist at best and as I get older I feel that I need to have a bit more than I once needed, while at Cabela's and Bass Pro over the winter I checked out the first aid and survival kits that they offered.
    I was surprised by the number of different kit's available by several different makers, some were geared towards hunters and campers, others more for boating and water sports, some were extensive while others were scant and compact.
    I wondered how many people buy those kits and never open them to check the contents or familiarize themselves with the components, I'm willing to bet that many, if not most, are content to know they have a kit, but just carry it hoping they'll never have to use it.
    It's one thing to imagine what one would do in a real emergency when they're warm, well fed, and hydrated, and no real emergency exists, while the mind is clear and not hampered by cold, confusion, and the realization that one is alone and in serious trouble, it's quite another to find yourself in such a position and not know exactly what your kit contains or how to use it.
     
  24. mtwarden

    mtwarden roaming the Big Sky Supporter

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    I've looked at dozens and dozens of different survival kits, some are decent, some aren't; but there isn't one that matches what I carry. My kits are ever evolving- my experiences often force changes, sometimes a better product is introduced, sometimes a product doesn't live up to my expectations

    I fully agree that getting intimately familiar with what ever kit your carrying is critical
     
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  25. Red Wing

    Red Wing Supporter Supporter

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    Exactly. Have to know gear will hold up, or work as expected That said, with a decent comfortability staying overnight outdoors in a minimalistic fashion, you can identify the greatest force multipliers for weight and space size.

    If all I have is a knife and a space blanket, Ill still survive. But Id rather make life easier on myself where I can, and when Im down and out that I might need it Ill takr every advantage.

    But nothing replaces experience except luck and you cant always count on it.. or at least it being good.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2017
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  26. S.Decker

    S.Decker Supporter Supporter

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    ⬆⬆⬆THIS⬆⬆⬆
     
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  27. Moe M.

    Moe M. Supporter Supporter Bushcraft Friend

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    Of course everyone's situation is a bit different than the next persons, being placed into a situation where a day hike or hunt turns into an overnight or several days stay depending on the weather and location can run from no big deal to life threatening, another game maker or changer is ones physical condition and wilderness skills level, as has been mentioned a person with the right attitude, basic survival skills, and a space blanket and knife can survive.
    However, too many people read or watch videos about putting together an Altoids or other similar PSK and think they are covered, but many suffer a high price because they didn't consider a few facts of life that are not stressed enough.
    Every year we read about some experienced hiker that made one small mistake and paid with their lives, two in the recent past involved an experienced mountain hiker who decided to take a weekend hike on Mt. Washington in NH in the late fall, she was from NY, her husband advised against it but she went anyway.
    The weather turned bad, she decided to leave the trail and take a short cut to a shelter, she became lost, pitched her small tent and hunkered down, her last entry in her journal was "tell my husband I love him", evidently she became confused about her direction, decided to wait for rescue, and died of hunger and dehydration, her remains were found by a couple of hunters about a year later.
    The other was another experienced hiker that was hiking in Northern Maine, got twisted and died of exposure, a two week search by the wardens service failed to find him, his remains were found several months later, again by hunters.
    In both cases the hikers were experienced, both had backpacks with clothing, shelter, and a little food, I think several things played a big part in their demise, one is that most people wait too long before prepping for shelter and fire, thinking that they'll make it out before dark or before the cold over comes them.
    Another is that people don't recognize the symptoms of hypothermia until it's effected their motor skills and their ability to think clearly, the third is that most people, even experienced hikers and hunters once they come to the realization that they are lost or in serious trouble go into panic mode, they pick a direction and begin to run only to change their minds and change direction, they get overheated and begin to strip of their outer clothing, they'll leave their packs, guns, and discarded clothing behind them in their haste to find a way out.
    These are real facts, ask any search and rescue official or game warden, that's why IMHO is so important to test yourself and your equipment if you plan for the possibility of an emergency survival situation.
    Again, in my opinion a PSK should include a fire kit, a full sized bushcraft type knife, a 5'x7' tarp or poncho for shelter, a metal water container that is capable of boiling water, some cordage, and a candle, maybe not as compact as a pocket survival kit, but it'll give you a much better chance of surviving than what you can stuff into a mint tin.
     
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  28. rsnurkle

    rsnurkle Supporter Supporter Bushclass I Bushclass II

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    @mtwarden how much use/testing have you gotten out of the mylar poncho?

    I tested the palmer furnace with 1 tea light candle and a dollar store poncho last year, and felt like I was losing what little heat the tealight candle brought into the system out the side arm holes, unless I held very, very still. I keep meaning to re-run the test with a garbage bag to get a sense for the actual experienced temperature difference, but I keep holding off on picking up a mylar poncho for lightweight kits because I'm wondering if a garbage without armholes would be a more effective palmer furnace for sitting around until daylight.

    ETA: I'm also trying to remember if I already asked this question before in another "back-up shelter" discussion thread, apologies if I did.
     
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  29. mtwarden

    mtwarden roaming the Big Sky Supporter

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    only "backyard" testing (which was pretty positive)- I do plan on a real test sometime this year- head out for a run with what I would normally carry and spend the night out

    my guess is it won't be overly comfortable, but should be just fine come morning- we'll see :4:
     
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  30. rsnurkle

    rsnurkle Supporter Supporter Bushclass I Bushclass II

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    Cool! Will be very interested to hear about the results of the test, crossing my fingers for a tolerable night out.
     
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  31. gargoyle

    gargoyle Scout

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    Would a clear poncho be more noticeable to rescuers at night?
    The candle light, thru the now glowing poncho, could be seen for a good distance. Used in the daytime/sunlight, the clear poncho would absorb radiant heat.
    The opaque quality of the foil type ponchos would block candle light from escaping.

    And, during the night, the soft glow may boost the spirits of a stranded man.
    Or would it attract bugs???
    [​IMG]
     
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  32. mtwarden

    mtwarden roaming the Big Sky Supporter

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    possibly, but the SOL one is bright orange so better for the day; it's also reflective on the inside making more thermal efficient

    the clear ones are super thin, while you need to be cautious with the SOL one, you'd have to be doubly so with the pocket size plastic ones
     
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  33. CSM-101

    CSM-101 Scout

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    Would an inflatable camping pillow work for a sit pad? I've never done any cold weather camping so I don't know how a inflatable pad compares to a foam pad for insulating properties.
     
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  34. reppans

    reppans Scout

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    Yes, they work - I've been using the same Klymit Cush for years (posted above). An uninsulated inflatable only has an R of ~1 which about equiv. to a 1/8" CCF pad (a Thermarest Ridgerest has an R of 2.6), but most folks rear ends tend to have extra meat on it making it a non-issue for sitting. I use mine as a micro torso pad to lie down on, and even take short trail naps, on the snow - but the cold seeping against the body gets uncomfortable over longer periods. Thicker, square-shaped pillows can feel tippy as the air shifts sides under your cheeks. The advantage of the inflatable is their tiny pack size (I EDC mine), but inflating/deflating is a bit more work than just throwing a CCF down.
     
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  35. CSM-101

    CSM-101 Scout

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    Thanks for the info!
     
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