My turn for a muzzleloader thread/Pics of my baby!

Discussion in 'Firearms' started by PAcanis, Feb 11, 2019.

  1. PAcanis

    PAcanis Supporter Supporter

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    I'm probably going to go with the Lyman GPR in a flintlock. I'd like to get the kit, but it seems everywhere I check is out. And Lyman said the end of March before they get any more in.

    I'm looking at accessories and am leaning towards horns. Purely for looks. Although correct me if I'm wrong, I still need the measure. I guess that's the nice thing with flasks. You can get different size spouts.
    Dixie and Track are right in line with prices. Then I bump into this site https://www.crazycrow.com/powder-horns and even if I don't go with kit form, the prices seem too good to be true. And we all know how that saying goes.

    Any input one way or the other?
    Flint vs percussion? (I've found a percussion kit)
    50 vs 54?
    Best place to get my accessories?
    Anything else you can think of?
    In spite of following the other threads, things get a bit overwhelming when it's your turn to shop.

    On the bright side, now that one of the gun shops semi-close to me has moved into a larger building, they sell real black powder now!
     
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  2. scottmm2012

    scottmm2012 Supporter Supporter Bushclass I

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    Why not a local manufacture, like an RMC Accusporter, made in Bellfonte, PA? Definitely go with flint. Opportunity to hunt the early muzzleloader season and the late flintlock season. If you're not thinking Elk or Bear, .50 cal is all you need. RMC makes great accessories. At any rate find a good supplier of black powder (BP), whether you are a Swiss or Goex, the suppliers are getting harder to come by. Disregard, sounds like you found a supplier of BP.
     
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  3. Mr. Tettnanger

    Mr. Tettnanger Supporter Supporter

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    Go with flint!

    Lyman Great Plains in 50 caliber is hard to beat.

    I can’t say on the horns, I don’t use them.

    If you can get to Kempton PA, visit Dixon’s Gun Shop!
     
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  4. scottmm2012

    scottmm2012 Supporter Supporter Bushclass I

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    Oh, and practice, practice, practice. Find out what your rifle likes to shoot, depending on twist rate, patched round ball(PRB), mini balls, or sabots. I prefer PRB in both my flints. It takes some time to find the right BP measure, patch thickness, and round manufacture, but its worth it.
     
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  5. PAcanis

    PAcanis Supporter Supporter

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    Why not them? First time hearing about them and they didn't come up in any searches, lol.
    Thanks for mentioning them and adding them to the list.
    Their price for a flint kit is ridiculous, but they do have one in stock. But I can get a built rifle for less than their kit for a GPR flint off GB. Too bad they are over three hours away or I'd check them out.

    Not for hunting, just shooting. I'd rather be archery hunting (I invested a lot last year) than ML. Especially in the areas I hunt. And PA's season for late flintlock coincides with archery.
     
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  6. PAcanis

    PAcanis Supporter Supporter

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    Strong endorsement on the rifle! Thanks.

    You use flasks?
     
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  7. Mr. Tettnanger

    Mr. Tettnanger Supporter Supporter

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    Yes, brass flasks. I use speedloaders when hunting.
     
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  8. CSM1970

    CSM1970 Guide

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    Crazy Crow has decent horns for a good price if you are not trying for perfect historical accuracy. Mine did pass inspection by the Chief Ranger here at a Texas Historical Park. I think they are made in India.
     
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  9. PAcanis

    PAcanis Supporter Supporter

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    Most excellent feedback.
    I'm not a reenactor, so they should be just fine then.
    Thanks.

    I still might use my flask, but like I said, I've always liked the looks of the horns.
     
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  10. barkoguru

    barkoguru Tracker

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  11. PAcanis

    PAcanis Supporter Supporter

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  12. PAcanis

    PAcanis Supporter Supporter

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  13. PeterCartwright

    PeterCartwright Guide

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    I'm a fan of .54 caliber for a roundball gun. I have a flintlock I built myself (using a Siler lock). Flintlocks are fun. But it's easier (read, cheaper) to make a good, working caplock than a quality flintlock. I think I'd rather have a percussion lock with the Great Plains Rifle. Perhaps someone who actually owns a GPR flinter will have a more informed perspective.

    PC
     
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  14. bluecow

    bluecow Scout

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    RMC Accusporter, dose not even pretend to be historically, if that matters to you. Having said that mine is the most reliable mass produced flinter that i have ever know. Nice gun. If this is your first M.L. a cap lock is a better choice IMHO unless your willing to put the time and effort into learning to use a flint lock. There is a learning curve, and the F.L. can be a bit of a son of a gun till you get it. But; Oh once you get it, hunting and shooting a flinter is a true joy. DON'T BUY A CHEAP FLINT LOCK! :mad: There is nothing a .54 can do that a .50 can't. Get the. .50 components are more available, all though .54 are not all that hard to find. Powder horn all the way. I find a horn ad a powder measure easier to use than a spring loaded spout. WARNING Run now while you can. ML. are addictive.
     
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  15. prairieofthedog

    prairieofthedog Tracker

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    I have a .50 and a .54.The .54 is a much better carry with that bigger tube.Much better balance,and less weight is why I like the .54 .
     
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  16. Dave_Markowitz

    Dave_Markowitz Supporter Supporter

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    The Lyman GPR is an excellent choice, and if in flint, can be used during PA's flintlock-only late deer season. Be advised you must use real black powder in flintlocks. Substitutes like Pyrodex or Triple 7 have higher ignition temperatures than real BP and ignition will be problematical. Subs are OK in caplocks.

    Another good black powder shooting supplies company is October Country, located in Idaho. I really like their blanket gun cases and have a few. I just got one of their Poor Boy Trade Horns and it is nice for the money, and made in the USA.

    Track of the Wolf is another mainstay supplier.

    Re horns vs. flasks: ALWAYS dispense powder from the main container, whether it be a horn, flask, or the OEM can, into a measure before it goes into the gun. Otherwise, an errant spark can turn your horn into a grenade. I recommend getting an adjustable brass measure so that you can work up loads. Then if you wish you can get a primitive, fixed measure.
     
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  17. barkoguru

    barkoguru Tracker

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    I had one in .54 flint, excellent rifle and the lock was fast and sparked great, I use 3f in the pan and down the barrel, I can also say the graf brand powder is good stuff too.
     
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  18. PAcanis

    PAcanis Supporter Supporter

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    Fantastic input guys. I appreciate it.

    I'll have to give Grafs a call tomorrow. Their part number is not jiving with their description on that kit. 1:32 is the Great Plains Hunter (conical) and not the Rifle (patched ball). Hopefully they got the manufacturer's number wrong. But if they didn't, they also have pretty nice prices on the completed gun. And I like their shipping. Cheap and they've always gotten stuff to me real fast.

    I've shot flintlock before. I had a TC Renegade in my twenties, but never got the hang of it. And I currently have an inline, but it's hitting the road.
    Watching YT vids I must have been doing something wrong with flint, because my ignition was certainly much slower than what I am hearing.
     
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  19. prairieofthedog

    prairieofthedog Tracker

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    TC's early Flintlocks were not a good gun to learn on.Wrong hammer geometry,not a real good lock.
     
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  20. PAcanis

    PAcanis Supporter Supporter

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    It was like, Chick... Boom. The smoke from the frizzen was in the air before the ball left the barrel.
     
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  21. Tom Black

    Tom Black Scout

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    Seems when it comes to flintlocks, you get what you pay for. A crappy lock just doesn't work as well as a good one. Keep your flint sharp and tight in the jaws. I use FFFg to load and prime with. FFFg burns cleaner, fowls less than does FFg. An in all my guns it's more accurate. All you need to clean with is tap water. No soap, no Windex, none of this modern stuff. Two-hundred-fifty years ago all they used was water, it worked then, it still works. Some type of good gun oil, it smells like hell but I love Ballistol. Over the last 47 years I've hunted with 36-40-44-50-54 and 60 calibre rifles. I still have a 40, 2-54's an a 60 cal. If I had to choose just one calibre it would be a 54. It is the 30-06 of the ML world. A lot of your gear you can make on your own with just a little practice. If I can do it, anyone can. A good flintlock is just a microsecond slower than a percussion and much faster to reload. Most of all, have fun!
    Tom Black
    My 54 calibre South Carolina with an onion head killed one rainy October morning a few years back.

    [​IMG]

    A decent 9 pointer with my 54 calibre Virginia.

    [​IMG]

    A good buck with my 60 calibre Kentucky.

    [​IMG]
     
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  22. longcruise

    longcruise Scout

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    I'm catching a red flag there. Might not be, but just in case, it can be a deadly mistake to fill the spout on the flask and then pour the powder down the barrel. It's possible, although rare, for a live spark in the barrel to ignite the powder as it's poured. If it's from a spout attached to the flask, the flask is going to blow up in your hand! It's important to use a separate measure.
     
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  23. Elgatodeacero

    Elgatodeacero Scout

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    I find the T/C Hawken and Renegade rifles, like the Lyman great plains rifle, a bit heavy.

    Consider looking for a .50 caliber T/C New englander, Treehawk, Firestorm (a flint lock) or similar. Much lighter. I like short barrels and modern sights.

    If no budget for this, consider a Tennessee Valley Muzzleloader.
     
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  24. Moe M.

    Moe M. Supporter Supporter

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    Tom Black is spot on, most production traditional styled percussion rifles today will function reliably if loaded properly and give reasonable hunting accuracy, but when it comes to flintlock rifles buying cheap is buying trouble, the only "cheap" flintlock rifle that I owned that was extremely reliable and match quality accurate was a first generation Dixie Gun Works Tn. Mountain rifle (poor boy) in .50 cal., it was my match gun for about 30 years, thousands of rounds down range and it never lost accuracy, I sold it because as I got older that rifle got a lot heavier.
    I had my reservations about buying a Japanese made muzzle loader at the time ( I'd never heard of Moruku firearms), sadly Dixie dropped it from their line up.
    I've shot a lot of line shoots and woods walks in my day, and seen a lot of disappointed shooters trying to deal with cheap misaligned hammers, soft frizzens, and weak or broken springs, all my flinters are custom or home made from high quality parts from respected makers, Production makers just can't afford that kind of quality in parts and hours of labor to fit and finish a good quality flintlock rifle or smooth bore fowler.
    Most basic kits start at about $800.00, up grade the wood, a match grade swamped barrel, and little extras like a simple patch box or inlays and you can easily double the kit price.
    It takes a good muzzle loader gunsmith about 60 hours to build a plain basic rifle, inlays, patch boxes, carving and such takes a lot more time, even at $15.00 an hour he's going to have a $1000.00 worth of labor tied up in your gun, but when you walk up to the firing line or are chasing that big buck you know it's going to work, and it'll hit what you're pointing at.
    As far as the Lyman Great Plains rifle, I have one that I built in .54 cal. percussion slow twist for patched round balls, I've owned a half dozen T/C's over the years before I went to flintlocks and the Lyman GPR beats T/C's hands down, but their flintlocks aren't on a par with locks like L&R, Jim Chambers and the like, they are only surface hardened and soften up over time with wear until they no longer spark.
    I've heard good things about Pettersolli's flintlock rifles, but even those are running a thousand dollars or more depending on the model.

    Just saying.
     
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  25. PAcanis

    PAcanis Supporter Supporter

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    My original plans was to order a kit from Pecatonica River. Well, actually the plan before that was thinking I could talk my buddy into selling me one of his, lol. He's built about a dozen and he's always telling me I should let him build me a bench rest rifle, but he didn't want to part with any of his babies.
    The Pecatonica kits are way above my skill set, especially when he was telling me what all went into it. Like dovetailing the barrel lugs into the barrel and locating the key holes. Having to mill them out and all that. Then I saw a YT video on the GPR kit. The GPR kit is still going to be a lot of work, but the lugs are on the barrels and the stock is inletted for the locks. Much more up my alley. Just minor fitting, shaping and polishing. But I'm not opposed to instant gratification either. Some built rifles are not that much more than the kit.

    The Tenn site looks promising. They had some nice rifles there (some were sold) and their prices were more in line with my thinking. I do not want to a buy a $4,000 ML.
    But really, with a lot of members here having GPR's, I thought they were another option. It seems some here don't like them and consider them cheap? Maybe they are, but they would get my feet wet and then maybe in a year I will have a better idea what I'm looking for in a higher end model.

    The choices are mind boggling. Much harder IMO than buying any other firearm, or archery equipment.
     
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  26. barkoguru

    barkoguru Tracker

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    When buying used you better know how to evaluate the condition of a used muzzleloader, and buying one used off the net your at the mercy of the seller to be honest and proficient at evaluating condition, Thompsons have been out of production for a long time so used is usually the only option there, as far as Lyman goes, if they built a crappy flintlock I don’t think they would be one of the best selling production rifles out there, and if a problem did pop up you have customer support there for help also.
     
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  27. PAcanis

    PAcanis Supporter Supporter

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    I'm not interested in used.
    It seems most of the muzzleloaders I'm looking at are built in Italy. Including the Lymans.
    I'm finding that odd. But I guess it's like a Taylor firearm or a Cimmaron. They are all Ubertis or some other Italian make.
     
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  28. PAcanis

    PAcanis Supporter Supporter

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    Oh, what is the deal with the side washers instead of a sideplate?
    I've never seen that before. A lot of TVM's guns use washers on the left side.
     
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  29. 62flint

    62flint Scout

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    Horns are traditional and historically correct. They usually have more capacity, and are waterproof if made properly. The powder measure should be separate.

    Dixon's shop is off I-78 near Kempton, and Fort Chambers is off I-81 Scotland exit; both are BP gunshops with guns in stock, commercial and custom.

    The 1st weekend of February was the 18th Century Artisans Fair at the Country Cupboard in Lewisburg, Pa. It is a fairly large venue with 4 rooms of comtemporary, antique, parts, etc.

    There are "kits" and "in the white" guns available from folks like Tip Curtis, TVM, and Jim Kibler. These have excellent locks and barrels, choices of wood, etc.
     
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  30. 62flint

    62flint Scout

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    It depends upon the time period of the gun. Some use a single lock bolt while most flintlocks use 2.
     
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  31. PeterCartwright

    PeterCartwright Guide

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    Check out a site called "Kibler's Longrifles". Looks to me like these folks are offering high quality kits (very good components) for a fair price. The most demanding part of the work has been done, leaving construction and finish work that should be within the skill sets of most hobby builders. I'm hoping to try one of these in retirement.

    PC
     
  32. Moe M.

    Moe M. Supporter Supporter

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    I'd say go with your gut feelings, if you can't afford a custom built flinter and you don't have the tools or skill set to build a scratch kit don't let that stop you, my first kit gun was my Lyman Great Plains rifle, by the time I finished the build I had found flintlocks, at the time I had about half a dozen percussion rifles, mostly T/C's and CVA's, I sold them all except my Lyman, not so much because I built it, but because it's such a good shooter and about as close to period as you can get in a production rifle.
    My suggestion is to go with the Lyman GPR in the flintlock model, the Lyman GPR has a well earned reputation for quality and reliability, if it develops a lock problem down the road you can always invest in a high quality replacement lock, they are available.
    As mentioned earlier, I loved my Dixie TMR but the triggers were crap, after shooting it for a couple of years I found a custom double set trigger from Deer Creek that practically dropped right in, I have also replaced the lock on my Lyman GPR with a drop in lock made for a T/C Hawken/Renegade, there was nothing wrong with the original lock but the new one used coil springs instead of the leaf spring found in the Lyman locks, but the point is that you can upgrade the Lyman GPR without having to do a lot of modifying if you need to.
    Another thing to consider is that if you decide later on to get into a custom or if a good deal comes around on a used custom flinter the chances are you aren't going to loose any money on the Lyman.
    As for building a GPR kit from Lyman, they are a snap, all the inletting is finished, the stock just needs to have a little rasping the finish sanding done, staining and what ever finishing you decide on, the barrel comes in the white, I just used a draw file to smooth it out a bit and browned it, but it comes with the barrel lugs dove tailed in and the breech plug installed, the furniture (trigger guard and butt plate) needs a little sanding and polishing, and you'll have to install the rear sight, it comes with two rear sights, one adjustable and one fixed period correct sight, but they are already shaped and dovetailed, I chose to go with the primitive sight to have it period correct.
    There's just enough work to make it your own and have fun doing it, IMHO when it comes to an affordable traditional muzzle loader the Lyman GPR is hard to beat, and don't forget to double check the rate of twist in the barrel when buying, the GPR comes in slow and fast twist, slow for round ball and fast for conical bullets.

    I really hope this helps.
     
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  33. Lee C.

    Lee C. Supporter Supporter

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    My first muzzle loader was a .54 grp. Bought many years ago. Was deadly accurate and very reliable. Can't go wrong with one.
     
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  34. werewolf won

    werewolf won TANSTAAFL Supporter Bushcraft Friend

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    If you want to be very traditional Hawken's were a lot more common in cap lock and in heavy calibers. To that end I'd be all over a .54 cap lock Lyman. I have a couple of flint lock rifles and muskets in my stable. By and large it's a case of you get what you pay for with them. I'd consider a Pedersoli flint lock--i believe they can be had as kits, but they have gotten expensive in recent years. I found a used Jaeger in flint with a second cap lock a couple of years ago and I've been pleased with that shorter full stock rifle, but the first owner knew what he was doing and the bore was spotless--used stuff through the mail can be a crap shoot. Get a look at it in person, and used can be the way to go.
     
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  35. PAcanis

    PAcanis Supporter Supporter

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    Thanks @Moe M.
    I did go with my gut. And whoever that enabler above was that posted that Tennessee Valley Muzzloading site :)
    I just got off the phone from ordering one. They don't have a lot to choose from, and the person said it can take a year for a gun to make it into their "showroom" because they don't finish them at a set schedule, so ordering one was out, but the more we talked and the more I looked the more I knew I had to have that Walnut Mtn Rifle they had for sale. And it's a .45, too. I was leaning towards a smaller caliber. I really like what I read about the lock they used, too. American made. Love it. Can't wait to shoot it, but much fondling will be done in the meantime.

    I'm thinking I'm still going to get a GPR kit, but the itch was really for something a little fancier, which is why I was trying to hit my friend up. Plus I just wanted a rifle built by him. Now I've got my custom coming to scratch the itch and can proceed from there.

    I better get some balls and stuff coming. And head out to pick up some 3F before we get pounded on again.
     
  36. Ohio_Steve

    Ohio_Steve Supporter Supporter Bushcraft Friend

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    That's a beauty! I'll be eager to hear how she shoots. That Cherry Mountain Rifle is a gorgeous piece, too!!

    Congratulations!
     
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  37. PAcanis

    PAcanis Supporter Supporter

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    Thanks!
    It's the one I kept coming back to.
     
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  38. pab1

    pab1 Supporter Supporter Bushclass III Bushclass I Bushclass II

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    Congrats on the new toy @PAcanis! Look forward to seeing/hearing about it.
     
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  39. PAcanis

    PAcanis Supporter Supporter

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    Thanks!
    I spent most of the night and morning trying to piece together my kit for it. It seems all the suppliers have one or two items they either don't carry or are out of, so I'm having to go from shop to shop piecing things together.
    Probably won't be shooting it for a while anyway.
     
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  40. PAcanis

    PAcanis Supporter Supporter

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    If I had the rifle I could be shooting it right now.
    It's sitting at the local UPS. I called them to see if I could pick it up, but they could not find it. He figure it's still on the trailer.
    It's going to be a long weekend waiting until Monday's delivery.
    Meanwhile, most everything else came in for it. And I picked up 3lbs of powder for it yesterday.
    It's going to be a long weekend waiting until Monday's delivery. Wait, I already said that :15:
     
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  41. PAcanis

    PAcanis Supporter Supporter

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    It's Monday!!! :59:
     
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  42. longcruise

    longcruise Scout

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    It's president's day, no mail today! :(

    Edit: oops you said UPS. do they work today?
     
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  43. PAcanis

    PAcanis Supporter Supporter

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    Yeah, UPS works today (thankfully), but I was wondering why my shooting bag wasn't here and asked someone if it was a holiday. Completely escaped my mind about Presidents Day.

    The rifle is beautiful. Just one fault, which they are remedying. All the screws are buggered up. Slightly, but still... They must have used the same screws for building the rifle as for the finished product they shipped and the maker did not take his time with them. But after I fix up this set I'll have extras.

    Beautiful balance. And really a lot lighter than I expected.
    Maybe I'll start filing in the notch for the rear sight today. It's snowing pretty good now.
    If it lightens up I'll get some outside pics.
     
  44. PAcanis

    PAcanis Supporter Supporter

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    It's not a sunny day, but if I can't shoot it I might as well "shoot it".
    It's hard to capture the beautiful browned barrel and parts. Unfortunately, it wasn't hard at all to capture all the buggered up screws. They've got some new screws on the way to me supposedly, but IMO it should not have come that way. I can bugger them up myself if I ever use one of those forged screwdrivers, or "turnscrews" I bought for my shooting bag, lol.
    Excuse me not shining things up and blowing off the debris ;)

    1.jpg

    German silver front sight
    2.jpg

    3.jpg

    4.jpg

    I got a small V filed into the rear sight. The front is pretty easy to pick up in a non-shooting environment anyway.
    5.jpg

    6.jpg
     
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  45. JohnP

    JohnP No more half measures Supporter Bushcraft Friend

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    Sweeet!

    JohnP
     
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  46. Elgatodeacero

    Elgatodeacero Scout

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    sweet rifle.

    is the flint upside down?

    im no pro, but I thought bevel was supposed to be down?
     
  47. goon

    goon Tracker

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    Depends on the gun. Some like the bevel up, some like them down.
     
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  48. southron

    southron Guide

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    I have my thinking so I"ll share it:

    .50 caliber patched round ball
    Flintlock because I like them, if ya want modern, just get a modern rifle, or one of those pretend inline things with sabots, shotgun primers and a scope /rolls eyes.


    There is nothing in the eastern US that ya need the larger weapon for.

    If you are thinking elk, or griz etc, then .50 caliber with maxi bullets and percussion lock shooting 70 grains of powder gives you the equivelant of a single load of 50/70 that was a common sharps caliber capable of killing 2,000 pound buffalo so that will cover ya.

    If you go flintlock ya want a 1 in 72 twist for patched round balls and the longest barrel length ya can get something like 30 - 34 inches or maybe more.

    If the percussion lock then a 28 inch barrel with the maxi bullets with something like 1 in 48 or less twist. to stabilize the longer heavy bullet needs more spin and the powder should ideally be fully consumed as the bullet almost exits the barrel to avoid friction and wasted powder burned after it isn't pushing anything any longer. Longer barrel would allow for more powder and some more velocity.

    If you can make a rendezvous you can often trade for stuff and more important make lots of friends, many of whom love to take someone under their wing and let them shoot different weapons which helps you choose your poison.

    Welcome to the addiction and fun.

    Might want to look into re enacting.

    Some folk like smooth bore trade guns which will let you fire shot or patched round balls and out to 75 yards or so it is essentially like using a shotgun with shot or slugs, but slower.

    That is the broad brush picture. The details are the difference in being decent or very very good with your chosen weapon.

    I'd want double set triggers, but that may be just me so try both and decide which would work better for the walk you walk, not the one I walk.

    That's freedom for ya; ain't it?
     

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