One of those days

Discussion in 'Edged Tools' started by Fenrirkw, Jun 4, 2019.

  1. Fenrirkw

    Fenrirkw Tracker

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    139
    Likes Received:
    305
    a lot of work in the garden....chopping to bits a monsterous apple tree.
    Time to play with the woodcraft pack axe.
    And I realise axes in the 23-24 inch category do not suit me at all.
    Amazing what difference a couple of inches make.
    And I have edge damage, on apple.
    Not much but I would expect any on 2 inch apple branches.
     
  2. Winterhorse

    Winterhorse Supporter Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2013
    Messages:
    13,302
    Likes Received:
    56,192
    Location:
    Kansas
    I know! Just an inch or two makes a big difference. I reviewed an axe one time that was superb except that I wanted just two more inches of handle.
     
    freebirdfb and Fenrirkw like this.
  3. BlueDogScout

    BlueDogScout Where is all the shelf stable bacon??? Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2017
    Messages:
    2,562
    Likes Received:
    7,497
    Location:
    Southern Illinois
    Man I would call council. The hear treat must be bad you should not have gotten damage just hitting wood
     
    freebirdfb likes this.
  4. Fenrirkw

    Fenrirkw Tracker

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    139
    Likes Received:
    305
    From the uk bud.
    Can’t remember who’s name I ordered in, mine or the mrs... dare not ask her, it may of been a present
     
    freebirdfb likes this.
  5. batmanacw

    batmanacw Bushmaster

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2015
    Messages:
    6,011
    Likes Received:
    19,553
    Location:
    NE Ohio
    The flat grind is inherently weak. My WPA is the only axe I have that always has damage on some small level. It's not the heat treat.

    I do like 24" axes so I cannot comment on that. I don't fell big trees but I didn't take down a huge widow maker with one.

    If you convex it you'll find that the edge damage will go away. Don't make the entire edge steeper. Blend out the hard bump at the top and curve it all the way to the edge.
     
    americanstrat98 and Fenrirkw like this.
  6. batmanacw

    batmanacw Bushmaster

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2015
    Messages:
    6,011
    Likes Received:
    19,553
    Location:
    NE Ohio
    Flat grind......they suck on axes. Craig doesn't agree so they keep doing it. The heat treat on mine is fine and it damages easy and it's never touched anything but wood.
     
    Les Staley, BlueDogScout and Fenrirkw like this.
  7. Fenrirkw

    Fenrirkw Tracker

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    139
    Likes Received:
    305
    This I would agree with. Not much to work with if I wanted to reprofile imo
     
  8. batmanacw

    batmanacw Bushmaster

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2015
    Messages:
    6,011
    Likes Received:
    19,553
    Location:
    NE Ohio
    It's easy to reprofile it. Just some time and a file. Start at the hard transition from edge to cheek. Then just produce a smooth curve. You'll only need to move the edge back a tiny bit as you file.

    Look up my thread on axe profiling.
     
    americanstrat98 likes this.
  9. Fenrirkw

    Fenrirkw Tracker

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    139
    Likes Received:
    305
    Just personal preference, I suppose I’m that used to the Scandinavian forest axe and bad boy bad axe (stupid name) I’m just not as confident/comfortable with anything smaller.
    I’m only 5’10” but have long arms, holding the head the know fits in my armpit.
    I would consider putting this head on a bbba handle
     
  10. batmanacw

    batmanacw Bushmaster

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2015
    Messages:
    6,011
    Likes Received:
    19,553
    Location:
    NE Ohio
    I'm 6'2". I just bend at the hips when required. I often use 20" axes to limb trees on the ground. It doesn't bother me. I just adjust and it works. I'll take a knee to fell a tree with a small axe if necessary.

    I often imagine some folks as the wood cutter on a swiss clock. They must have one swing that looks like "that guy" on the internet and if the axe doesn't fit into it then it's wrong.

    In the woods I seem to find very few situations that are static. I've felled trees 6" diameter in just a couple minutes or less with an 18" axe. I didn't find myself uncomfortable or in pain. The only difference is body positioning. I agree a boy's axe is easier. Most of my pack axes weigh very little compared to a boys axe. Most of my favorite axes weigh less than a boys axe head.
     
    americanstrat98 likes this.
  11. Fenrirkw

    Fenrirkw Tracker

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    139
    Likes Received:
    305
    Thats the thing, do you use the tool that suits your technique or adapt your technique to suit the tool?
    I’m all for changing body position etc but why would you when you can just pick up a tool where you don’t have to.
     
  12. batmanacw

    batmanacw Bushmaster

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2015
    Messages:
    6,011
    Likes Received:
    19,553
    Location:
    NE Ohio
    This is from my axe list

    CT Boy's Axe
    27.5" over all
    3-6.3 lbs
    2.25# head

    That axe just doesn't carry well. That's why. The further I have to carry it the lighter the axe gets. The capability of the axe is not directly proportional to its size if certain parameters are adopted.
     
    americanstrat98 likes this.
  13. BlueDogScout

    BlueDogScout Where is all the shelf stable bacon??? Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2017
    Messages:
    2,562
    Likes Received:
    7,497
    Location:
    Southern Illinois
    Fair enough but I’ve never had that issue with mine.
     
  14. Fenrirkw

    Fenrirkw Tracker

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    139
    Likes Received:
    305
    4 inches and a few oz difference to the pack axe and it doesn’t carry very well?
    I’m sorry but that logic will always baffle me....
     
  15. batmanacw

    batmanacw Bushmaster

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2015
    Messages:
    6,011
    Likes Received:
    19,553
    Location:
    NE Ohio
    My 700g Rinaldi Calabria head on a boy's axe handle is 27.25" long, and 2 lbs 9.4 oz.

    My CT WPA has a 2# head on 23" and weighs in at 2 lbs 12.6 oz.

    If I've got a lot of chopping to do I'd grab the Rinaldi every time.

    My Hults Bruk Akka is 2 lbs 4 oz and is a great little axe that can eat up a 6" to 8" green tree in a minute or so. Same weight as the head of a boy's axe and the edge never shows damage during regular chopping.
     
    americanstrat98 likes this.
  16. americanstrat98

    americanstrat98 Wanderer Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2014
    Messages:
    2,601
    Likes Received:
    15,870
    Location:
    Heart of Dixie
    Yep a 2.5-3.3lbs head on a 27 handle is the bee's knees when it comes to chopping for an afternoon. Cut a half pound from the head and a few inches from the handle and you have a great pack axe, that won't compete with the boys axe as far as relative comfort. However it does carry well.

    IMO run over to ace hardware and pick up a 14" Nicholson file (yep the Mexican ones) and read up on Batmanacw's Axe Profiling thread. Convexing your axe's bit would take roughly 25 minutes of draw filing. Your axe will then bite deeper, throw chips better, and it won't roll easily when you make mistakes. I have a few Council's and they are pretty solid axes with good heat treats. Good luck!
     
  17. garry3

    garry3 Scout

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2013
    Messages:
    923
    Likes Received:
    1,823
    Just out of curiosity.
    Was the wood dry and did the edge deform or chip? Apple wood can be pretty hard.
     
  18. MJGEGB

    MJGEGB Bushmaster

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2013
    Messages:
    5,729
    Likes Received:
    18,907
    Location:
    Portsmouth Virginia
    The reason I always strongly advocate against the Mexican made Nicholsons and house brand files is that the first one I got lasted for a month, the second one never cut from the get go. Similar experience with Stanley files, one was okay one dulled almost immediately.

    Bahco files made in Portugal however I've have great luck with. I've been abusing two of them for a couple of years now and the smaller finer tooth one has dulled a bit while the bigger of the two is still going strong though with a bit of wear and tear. They are also considerably cheaper than the ones from the hardware store. My last one was $8, though I haven't used it yet, no need till I wear the first one out.
     
    highlander, BlueDogScout and MrFixIt like this.
  19. americanstrat98

    americanstrat98 Wanderer Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2014
    Messages:
    2,601
    Likes Received:
    15,870
    Location:
    Heart of Dixie
    The reason I advocate Mexican files is that most folks don't know how to use one without damaging the teeth. I'm not pointing my finger at you either. They are cheap enough to make it through a few reprofilings. I've got a few that have made it over a year or so, and I've got probably a dozen USA or Swiss made files that will never see hardened steel that are close to 40 years old. So its for a good reason I suggest the cheap stuff for folks that are learning to use a file. Probably the two most important things when using a file is never too drag the teeth backwards over a surface, and never use it on steel that is harder than the file. Another tip is to keep oil away from the file. In fact do the opposite and rub a little chalk in the teeth between cleanings.

    I've got a Mann Edge Tool Co axe that will screw up any file in my shop. Yep, I only use a belt grinder on that thing. There are a couple of more axes that are right on the brink of causing damage so I only use the cheaper files on them.

    This isn't just my opinion. It is a fact that a good file is made to be broken in, and it will last years if properly maintained and used. However give a good file to a nut and watch him use it like a hacksaw. You can say goodbye to that thing. I was that nut the very first time I picked up a file, and I received quite a bit of lip from my instructors.
     
  20. MJGEGB

    MJGEGB Bushmaster

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2013
    Messages:
    5,729
    Likes Received:
    18,907
    Location:
    Portsmouth Virginia
    Can't argue with anything in there except why not advocate for the cheaper but better file?

    I've also got a Mann Edge Tool Co that is a file destroyer. I've run into more than a few folks who have claimed the same. Seems they used good steel that was capable of being run hard and still being tough. I had to switch back and forth between a course stone and cheap file on mine to get it profiled including removing a chip so it didn't get worse. It's my favorite boys axe.

    Do you know the trick for using copper pipe for deep cleaning of file teeth? It's perfect for when you've used them on softer material that tends to clog the teeth. I used to have a great video saved on file basics as you are correct a lot of folks don't know how to use a file properly.
     
    americanstrat98 likes this.
  21. americanstrat98

    americanstrat98 Wanderer Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2014
    Messages:
    2,601
    Likes Received:
    15,870
    Location:
    Heart of Dixie
    I would be okay with Nicholsan picking up their game. I don't like paying $40 for a good file, and bahco isn't available in my local stores.

    Yeah, the Mann Edge really surprised me. It's on a short straight haft and is used for driving wedges and clearing aound trees before felling. It does chip a little, but not as much as one would expect. It says True American on it and is a high center grind too.

    I've used Copper a few times as you've mentioned for really stubborn bits. Really only softer metals get stuck. I usually wrap the file's tip on my vise and use a file card. Still I do have a couple of copper electrical fittings in my tool box.
     
  22. batmanacw

    batmanacw Bushmaster

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2015
    Messages:
    6,011
    Likes Received:
    19,553
    Location:
    NE Ohio
    File cards are designed by file makers to sell more files. Very destructive.
     
  23. americanstrat98

    americanstrat98 Wanderer Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2014
    Messages:
    2,601
    Likes Received:
    15,870
    Location:
    Heart of Dixie
    Holy conspiracy theory @batmanacw!

    Which would a machinist rather do? Destroy a finish, or destroy a file while making a good finish? The file that was used to create this finish has struck over 2 dozen rifle barrels and actions and is still going. At $60 per hour of metal finishing I'd say the file has paid for itself. A file card was used to clean it daily. You're gonna have to bring something more scientific to the table. These are expendable items btw, not family heirlooms.
    IMG_20190606_094421348_HDR.jpg
     
    garry3, Kona9 and MJGEGB like this.
  24. MJGEGB

    MJGEGB Bushmaster

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2013
    Messages:
    5,729
    Likes Received:
    18,907
    Location:
    Portsmouth Virginia
    Mine is a True American as well, great axe. I'll get little chips from time to time when there is some dirt in the wood. You'll see a spark fly and generally there will be a tiny chip somewhere in the edge.

    As for the files I order them from Amazon or eBay. My last one was a 10" for $8 which is 75% of what Nicolson files sell for in my local store. The last one I purchased was no good right from the store. I stopped buying them after that. Glad you have better luck with them, but I would urge you to try a Bahco and see what you think.
     
    americanstrat98 likes this.
  25. MJGEGB

    MJGEGB Bushmaster

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2013
    Messages:
    5,729
    Likes Received:
    18,907
    Location:
    Portsmouth Virginia
    Sorry friend have to disagree with you on this. I use a wire brush but same concept.

    You chalk the teeth like @americanstrat98 said to keep material from sticking as much. Then every two to three strokes you tap the file on the workbench at the end to help material get out of the teeth. And after each use or every so often during extended use you run a wire brush or file card in parallel with the teeth working your way up and down. Crossing the teeth will damage the file but running with them helps keep it clean.

    For draw filling doing finishing work like the rifle barrel above (nice work @americanstrat98 BTW) you need clean teeth or you will end up gouging the surface with shavings caught in the teeth.

    For deep cleaning you can flatten a piece of copper pipe and run it again parallel with the teeth. The teeth will cut teeth into the copper which will shove any material clogged up in the teeth out. This is especially useful for when you file softer materials like copper, brass, aluminum or plastic.
     
  26. batmanacw

    batmanacw Bushmaster

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2015
    Messages:
    6,011
    Likes Received:
    19,553
    Location:
    NE Ohio
    Stiff nylon does the same thing without dulling the file.
     
  27. CaptCrunch

    CaptCrunch Scout

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2017
    Messages:
    312
    Likes Received:
    938
    Location:
    mn
    Got a couple file cards with stiff bristles on one side.Have heard only clean them in one direction before and have heard about no oil too.I have got a bunch of old files and if i dont keep oil on them they rust pretty bad.Clean them before i use one but haven't noticed it hurt.
     
  28. americanstrat98

    americanstrat98 Wanderer Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2014
    Messages:
    2,601
    Likes Received:
    15,870
    Location:
    Heart of Dixie
    I've tried them, in the long run they are good for wood rasps/checkering tools, but not so good when filing aluminum, brass, or delrin. A good bronze or brass brush works too, and on stubborn stuff a regualar old file card works. On stuck bits MJGEGB described how copper that is sharpened is the ticket, and it has saved my butt on certain jobs without damaging the teeth.


    @MJGEGB , I'll order a couple of bahco files. Never hurts to try. Thanks for the tip.
     
  29. Fenrirkw

    Fenrirkw Tracker

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    139
    Likes Received:
    305
    Fresh,deform
     
    garry3 likes this.
  30. Fenrirkw

    Fenrirkw Tracker

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    139
    Likes Received:
    305
    Well I took @batmanacw comments on board... I’m getting used to this size of tool.
    I thought I would try an alternative to the wcpa and decided on a rm wilderness axe.
    Lots of heartwood, in the handle which immediately disappointed me but that changed to “well actually it won’t make much difference and the two tone looks cool”

    So anyway I apologise to batman, good advice.
    At least I went away and modified my technique and not be a stubborn fool
     
    Ptpalpha likes this.
  31. Ptpalpha

    Ptpalpha Supporter Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2016
    Messages:
    7,611
    Likes Received:
    34,702
    Location:
    Michigan
    Another vote here for Bahco files, although they're not magic, lol. I learned the hard way that when the file skates once you don't just keep going.
    That's when I get out the diamond file.
     
    Kona9 likes this.
  32. Fenrirkw

    Fenrirkw Tracker

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    139
    Likes Received:
    305
    I’m a fan of bahco files, great for the price
     
  33. garry3

    garry3 Scout

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2013
    Messages:
    923
    Likes Received:
    1,823
    I bought into the steel side of the file cards are bad for files at one time. Then I looked at my files and rasps that never touch steel, some of them I have been using for a couple decades, not everyday but they get used and have always been cleaned with file cards and I can't seem to wear them out. So in conclusion, I wear out my files on hardened steel and consider the wear from file cards inconsequential. YMMV
     
    SC T100 likes this.
  34. batmanacw

    batmanacw Bushmaster

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2015
    Messages:
    6,011
    Likes Received:
    19,553
    Location:
    NE Ohio
    I gave advice given to me by several guys who buy, sell, and sharpen files for a living. One of them buys Bahco files and sharpens them for use in laminate. YMMV.
     
  35. CaptCrunch

    CaptCrunch Scout

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2017
    Messages:
    312
    Likes Received:
    938
    Location:
    mn
    Dont know much about how or where they are made but the two i have used are great.Lawson marked on one supertanium on the other.12 inch chipbreaker hogs it off.Coated or something hasnt rusted at all
     
  36. Fenrirkw

    Fenrirkw Tracker

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    139
    Likes Received:
    305
    Well this thread went weird.... I’m out
     

Share This Page