Discussion in 'Firearms' started by deleplank, Jun 4, 2019.
Why shoot it 13 times when you can shoot it 100 times?
You need to pick the cartridge meeting your requirements first. Then the firearm.
After a firearm is finally decided on...
I'm hungry. What do you think I should have for lunch?
Muscles, clams, and squid.
If $0.41 doesn't solve the problem, I have 5 x .22 to use. That adds up to 1.10!
It's impossible to try to answer that without having some idea of what the OP is worried about / trying to accomplish.
In a general sort of a way;
-What is the largest weapon you are willing to lug around? Longer barrel means better sight radius, more weight means less recoil. A 6" GP100 or similar revolver is a fine pleasant gun to shoot, but it is also a huge heavy piece of iron. You have to draw the line on total weight at some point, so you make that decision first.
-What are you trying to accomplish? How much power is necessary? Now you can start looking at calibers. The size of weapon you are willing to carry will interact with this choice. Willingness to carry a large heavy weapon makes large heavy calibers more practical. If size and weight are being kept to a minimum, you may need to restrict your caliber to something you are capable of shooting with confidence. You figure that out in the next step...
-Unless you already have a lot of shooting experience, the next step is to make the target range your primary hobby for the next month or so. If you can find one that rents guns for range use, that's a huge plus. Until you completely understand how your chosen weapon works, you haven't accomplished anything at all.
*even if a .22 rimfire is the caliber you decide on, you still get the largest heaviest weapon you are willing to carry, because for any given level of skill and practice, the larger handgun will be easier to use well. That doesn't mean you have to get a big huge heavy handgun, it just means that you want to recognize the benefit of longer sight radius and heavier weight, and make decisions accordingly. And whatever you settle on, take the time and effort to learn how to operate it in a competent manner.
I'm an NRA member, a permit holder in a reasonably gun friendly state, and an owner of an embarrassing quantity of handguns. But I seldom carry one when hiking in North GA, because I don't perceive much risk, and I don't want to lug the damn heavy thing around. It's a personal kind of decision.
So, having prattled on more than I intended to, if I was going to take a handgun on a hike, it would probably be a 3" .357 revolver (sp101 in my case) with a couple of rounds of snake shot available and the rest of the ammo supply being hollow points of whatever flavor I felt comfortable shooting in that revolver. Which I am not making a suggestion on because I ain't you. You figure that out at the range. Revolvers are simple, and robust, and you get a wide range of possible loads so you can achieve your personal comfort / competence.
Hope all that helps.
OK, so you are going to get a ton of responses for this simple question. Here's my two pennies for what it's worth. Carry a pistol light enough it won't be a hinderance, in a caliber big enough to handle what you think may be it's largest task. What good is a gun you would rather leave in the truck than lug around on the trail? And don't bring a pea shooter to a bear fight.
That's a really good response, and a lot more efficient than mine.
The best gun to have in a gunfight is one that you have with you. Which means one you are willing to carry (and able to use well).
Yes I should have included this caveat.
Don't feel the need to carry in the woods, but I carry a 1911 in the city. Just don't like big crowds.
It is really what you do, where you go, what states you visit, how many days, and.... how much money you want to spend on it.
Weapon is the one thing. Then you need ammo to train. You will need a holster. You will need CCW is you will leave your state.
Do you mind telling us more about it?
I personally carry a Taurus pt111 g2 with Hornady critical duty ammo. The pistol competes with glocks in reliability and I believe feels better in my hand for around $250. The only thing I don’t like is that barely anyone makes aftermarket parts for it. Also the correct ammo choice can close gaps in stopping power, so I would go to a gun shop and hold some and fire them if possible and pick the one in your budget that you like and is reliable.
I have been carrying a S&W 3 inch barrel Model 60. It’s a .357, and I carry it in a chest holster.
Trying to help, not butting in. I can't say for sure on the Gen 5s but other models of 19/23 and 17/22 have interchangeable slides, bbls and frames.
I was referring to turning a .40 into a 9mm. The case size is different by about 1mm. That doesn't sound like much but it is to me. The only thing keeping a 9mm against the face of a slide cut for. 40 is the extractor, with a lot of potential wiggle room.
My .02 cents on this issue. You want a defensive handgun that works when you need it to. MOST of the big names accomplish this. Revolver vs auto loader? To me that's like arguing corded vs cordless drills. They both have pros and cons. If you have a range near you that rents guns try both. Most important, once you decide, spend time firing both dry and live and carrying it. Learn what works for you and practice both basic marksmanship as well as presentation from a holster. Be prepared to have a box of holsters you don't like
I get what your saying. I misunderstood. While the frame, slide and bbls are interchangeable, all internal parts are not. I have not done it, but have seen people swap out bbls and mags between 9 and 357sig, without issue. I've only read about swapping 9 and 40.
It really depends what he wants to do.... he started this debate with some questions. However, so far he did not tell what is his lifestyle, career history (LEO, military, etc), financial capabilities, and travel habits. This will determine what kind of weapon he needs to get.
Many people expressed their choices but again... we do not know their lifestyle, career history, financial capabilities, and travel habits. Generally, a choice of his/her weapon is suited to their lifestyle, travel needs, their pocket book...
For example, retired LEO will not care about their travel limitations. Business owner will not care about money. Military guy will not care about permits because he/she are exempt. Active outdoorsman will chose a different weapon that a city slicker would.
This si why I was asking him about his lifestyle, travel habits, financial capabilities...
Something like that...
It is not that easy... Guy wants to buy a weapon. He is asking for some ideas... without telling us why does he need a weapon? What is his lifestyle? What are his travel habits? Is he LEO? Military?
I know, you will say that LEO or military guys will know the weapons and what they need.... Not really. Many LEO or military guys never owned a weapon and never will. NO need. They use whatever was issued to them. They really do not care about brands, kinds, or power. They use what was assigned and issued to them.
So... a guy.... needs to tell us more if he wants to hear some valid points, instead of individual preference confession....
Studies have actually been done on guns and bears. The most effective deterrent against a bear attack is bear spray. Spray is more than 90% effective against a bear, where as firearms are less than 50% effective.
Bears have very thick skulls, fur, and hides. The most effective caliber handgun against large preditors is .44mag. FMJ rounds are recommended because hollow points may not even penetrate deep enough to cause any damage and may just enrage a charging animal. If you ever see a Park Ranger carrying, they've usually got a big ol' .44 revolver strapped to their hip.
But... Bear spray.
Also, national parks (Yellowstone, for example) have very strict policies and laws about firearms. If you shoot an animal, even in self defense, you'll likely be sited or even prosecuted for just firing your gun.
In national parks and national forests, you may not bring your weapon into any of the facilities or buildings (ranger stations, cafeterias, administration buildings, etc..). In fact many state parks and forest facilities have the same laws, depending on your state.
So... Bear spray.
Bear spray is good, but I just want to point out that .44mag is actually not the “most” effective handgun caliber. That would be a .500 S&W magnum, which has ballistics similar to a rifle cartridge.
It is substantially more powerful than a .44mag, but not as unwieldy as people think. With training it can be fired reliably and in a controlled manner.
You carry your "bear spray" and I'll carry my gun.
I pretty much carry what I normally carry even when I lived in Colorado. A semi compact, or full size 9MM, like a CZ-75, or the compact CZ-75D PCR which is still service sized, and "high" capacity, just a tad smaller and lighter than the full size version. I have little fear from animals. It is the two legged creatures that are more of a threat, and even then not much of a threat at that. Typically where I hike and camp I do not see other humans, and there are no Grizzlies, so I am not fearful.
Montana, Alaska or Kodiak Island. Different story.
True but I'd add make sure it has a comfortable grip and you can shoot it well. For some reason I hate the Glock grip ad just don't shoot them well. The S&W M&P on the other hand just seems to be one with my hand and I can shoot very well with them. This adds to my confidence as well.
I would recommend the minimum cartridge for black bear areas to be a 9mm and 44 for grizzly. I've got a lot of experience hunting black bear and come from a family that has hunted them successfully for over 100 years. Black bears are pretty soft. In the early 1900s people used 38 specials to hunt them in the heavy laurel of the PA mountains. Others used 32-20 rifles. With the early smokeless powders of the day these were very anemic rounds. And usually solid lead bullets. Not modern hunting bullets designed for penetration. But accounted for a lot of bear.
I suggest a 22 cal. pistol is all you need out in the woods. It will cover everything. If in big bear country and are attacked, just shoot your buddy in the leg and run like he!!.
Or just live in an area where humans are the undisputed apex predator. Like Ohio. We have a few really shy brown bears, some coyotes, and other humans to deal with. Much respect to all of you who enter the woods knowing you might be seen as food.
Opinions, as expected, are all over the board here. As someone said above, it is in fact a personal decision depending on the perceived need it is intended for. I don't think you could ever go wrong with a 4" 38/357 Mag revolver; it's just that versatile. (Ruger blackhawk, GP100, Security Six or an older S&W Model 19). Having said that, my woods bumming firearm is a 4 5/8 " Ruger Bisley 44 Mag. I load it with 250 gr cast Lead Semi-wadcutters (Lyman-Kieth) at a reduced velocity of about 900 fps. Also load #12 shot for critters w/o legs should the need arise - it did once. It's admittedly a bit heavy but it's been tuned and runs flawless and is bull strong. I trust it to do whatever I might call it to do; from bears, to ner-do-wells, to 'yotes... Bottom line I like it, trust it, and shoot it well. Just food for thought.
For general bush craft and light foraging use? Ruger Single six in 22LR / 22Mag
For 2 legged varmints?
AR pistol in 300 blackout with a bunch o mags
@Pilot I love my PCR. https://i.imgur.com/FDdmw8M.jpg
The real trick is to pick a common defense caliber (.380, 9mm, .40, .45, 10mm, .357 sig/magnum, .44 magnum, .38 special...) and carry whatever gun you shoot best in that caliber. Rimfire is probably fine, though I wouldn't carry a semi-auto rimfire for defense, since I won't carry a pistol I can't put 1000 rounds in a row through without a single hiccup, and no rimfire can do that.
That is exactly why I didn't merely suggest my favorite firearm as so many others were doing. The last thing a person should do is go out and buy a gun just because someone on a forum recommends it. Though the recommendation can certainly get you to a starting point. But, since the OP didn't give any of that info I gave him some things to consider while making his choice.
Yes, I admitted earlier I definitely should have added the caveat of make sure you shoot it well. I was trying to be succinct in my suggestion since as I said above, I wasn't going to give specific advice but merely give him some parameters he might want to consider.
It's a good choice for his needs, but I carry a five dollar bill for black bear. If I was in grizzly country I'd carry a twenty.
I endeavor to carry tools relevant to the task at hand.
What presents the greatest threat ?
Man or Beast or both.
What weapon am I most proficient ?
If you don't know this, you are not ready to carry .
Why ? because the untrained freeze and the gun is a placebo .
Green horns freeze with buck ever, and either do nothing or shoot wildly hitting nothing or worse wounding the predator and making him more determined to eat you.
Even cops not trained sufficiently do not have a warrior mentality and get killed in a fire fight unnecessarily.
Personally a .357 mag provides a good broad range of defense , snake shot ,38 special and mag.
Because one can grow dull in muscle memory I practice using air(CO2) guns BB and pellet guns ,cheap to shoot and good muscle memory.
They may not have the recoil, but the fact of the matter is the recoil SHOULD surprise you every time.
It is anticipating the recoil that throws most shooters off.
Air guns can be acquired representing most gun designs with the same weight and action.
This seems to be a popular refrain in this forum. I don't necessarily buy it though. Don't get me wrong, I believe if you are going to take on the heavy responsibility of carrying any weapon, especially a firearm, you should absolutely get all the training you can and practice practice practice. That having been said, how does one train to destroy a person? You yourself state that
I believe there is a fight or flight instinct in all of us. Training may be able to give you the mental attitude (warrior mentality) needed to fire a gun with the calculated aim of destroying someone. But the instinct to survive and go home to your children, or protect your family can certainly do the same. The internet is chock full of stories about "untrained people" saving themselves or their family using a gun. I believe that is the same reason most of the LEOs I work with will tell you the best person to save yourself will be you. Will they also say to practice? Naturally, but that will be mostly to ensure you can handle the gun and know it inside and out.
I didn't realize it at the time but $0.41 will buy a full reload of .22lr or two premium .22 mag rounds. $5 will get a few good rounds for a .44 and if facing a grizzly bear, that's a bargin!
On a trip to Florida for wild pigs I cogitated over the choice of a decent all around handgun. Something that will do double duty, so to speak, when it comes to defense against violent people and against animals. I saw a lot of videos online regarding the 10mm and some specialty ammo from Underwood.
Well. I took the leap and bought a Ruger SR1911 target model in 10mm Auto.
In a nutshell, I love the gun. Bear in mind I am a dyed in the wool revolver man but this gun has inflicted a serious fondness. In fact I am carrying it as much as I can with an in the pants holster.
I figure that this 10mm will be great for most of the east coast and lower 48 when it comes to dangerous animals and unfortunately dangerous people.
Now if I am in an area where I know there will be something like a grizzly , then it will be Ruger SRH in 480 Ruger for such an occasion.
What is THAT gonna be when it grows up ???
OTOH - Is pretty. I want one, just because.
.22 is not a terrible choice, even in bear country .......
Right now it's a 22 lr/ mag and it will be a SA .44 when its fully grown!
I had the same thought: "What a ridiculous tiny gun." Then I held it a few times and eventually took it home. Not a bad choice for dog and coyote with the mag cylinder and a fun range gun with the lr cylinder. I like it because I like it because I like it. And 41 pennies buys a full reload.
I don't get the ar-15 fascination so to each their own.
I am glad to meet someone who knows a good weapon...
You have a special service weapon that will never let you down.
Very good choice ,friend.
It is not for children....so please, viewers discretion is required.
I understand. I think your post was very informative.
I like different weapons than anyone else... based on my needs, my experience, and buying options.
My service/duty weapons were/are different than I would buy or carry.
I look at the practicality of the weapon, reliability, and price (I typically buy using a Blue Label program).
Again... it is guy's preference. If he is asking an opinion... most likely he needs one. Will he be a target shooter? It did not sound like... So options are even more easier to chose from...
Stay safe at the range
I happen to like those FA mini revolvers.
Always wanted the belt buckle version.
Looks like a miniature Judge
I love almost ALL GUNS.
Yes.... AR15 platform, 1911, M1, the whole gambit of “cowboy” guns, and even recently have been looking at a (gasp) GLOCK.
Anyway, enough threadjack.
Back to originally scheduled programming.
Well... they just harassed that poor bear til he finally misbehaved and then shot him.
Ye... Yugoslavians. They do not care about animals... killed that bear and posted that on YouTube. Their police...
There wasn't enough in the video to determine why they decided to shoot the bear.
I do not think it is important... The point was to share "9mm vs Bear"
Owner of Buffalo Bore says he carries hardcast 9mm for bears and has had to use it. I'm not advocating using 9mm, but we can go back and forth on bear spray vs gun, revolver vs semi, and caliber choice all day. If you think you're going to be attacked by a bear stay home, if you have to go take the largest caliber you can handle. This debate has gone on for decades.
People can chose that works for them.
I use things that works for me.
The nice thing about the 75D or taking the 75B I can bring the Kadet Kit .22 conversion and switch calibers in seconds.