Riddle Me This...

Discussion in 'Firearms' started by Medic17, Nov 8, 2018 at 2:06 PM.

  1. Medic17

    Medic17 Supporter Supporter Bushclass I

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    Why does one gravitate to a larger caliber of bullet when faced with a restricted magazine capacity?

    Many areas have recently seen 10 round restrictions placed on magazine capacity.

    When the restrictions are applied people often choose to carry a bigger bullet when they cannot carry higher quantity of ammunition.

    In reality with the modern defensive bullet-
    Terminal performance against a human attacker remains about the same in both the larger and smaller pistol calibers. (Within a given "duty caliber" spectrum.) This seems to hold true in gelatin ballistic testing as well as NIJ reports on fatalities involving handguns...

    In the smaller caliber, it usually equates to a more controlled recoil impulse which results in tighter groups and faster follow up shots.

    With this being said...
    Why do I find myself looking back at the larger caliber cartridges when said restrictions are coming back into place despite my current knowledge and experience with the smaller caliber?
     
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  2. Gruntinhusaybah

    Gruntinhusaybah Hobbyist Hobbyist Supporter Bushclass I

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    I’ve heard that very same advice before, and from a very compelling source.

    I stick with 9mm.

    Mostly for monetary reasons.

    whats your AO?
     
  3. WY_Not

    WY_Not Supporter Supporter

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    No mag restrictions here but a 1911 is what I've carried for (crimeny!) 25+ years. It is the handgun I practice with, it is the handgun I enjoy shooting. I've honestly found a .45acp easier to shoot and get back on target than a 9mm. Slow push vs snappy. I can shoot my 1911 all day. 50 rounds through an LCP and I'm done.
     
  4. Skeptiksks

    Skeptiksks Green Haired Weirdo Supporter Bushcraft Friend

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    Because 10mm? That's where I'm heading next lol
     
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  5. dmangler

    dmangler Scout

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    Yea. I was faced with the same conundrum.
    I went the other way, went from .357 5 shot to 9mm 6 shot.
    I guess if rabid zombie bears attack I would prefer the .357, if that happens you can say "I told you so"
     
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  6. Paulyseggs

    Paulyseggs Supporter Supporter

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    Mental compensation for something they deemed inadequate.

    When if they looked at ALL the numbers .Not just ones they like. They would see more similarities than differences between the "small" and the "large"
     
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  7. werewolf won

    werewolf won TANSTAAFL Supporter Bushcraft Friend

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    I have relatively big palms but short fingers and a double stack grip is usually a handful for me so I’ve gravitated into 1911 frames, with the thinnest slabs I can get on them. If I could carry a large capacity magazine I’d deal with double stackers, but since I cannot I might as well shoot what is comfortable. I know you can get a 1911 in 9MM but .45 is just to classic not to carry.
     
  8. Bigghoss

    Bigghoss Scout

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    There's what you know and what you feel. You know 9mm will work just as well but something about that big hole in the muzzle is comforting. And .45 is just cool, lets be honest. It's like how I miss my old F250 even though I rarely haul anything and my S10 does everything I need it too. The huge V8 and tall stance are just impressive.
     
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  9. hlydon

    hlydon Guide

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    How many times have I said bigger isn’t necessarily better? It’s how you use it.

    A well-placed duty round generally has one shot stopping power for people. When just protecting against people, I carry 9. When protecting against large furry creatures, I carry 44.
     
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  10. tch1718a

    tch1718a Scout

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    Had a conversion with a friend i served with. We were talking about pistol performance, and he knew i was a die hard 45 acp guy. He was rather uncommitted to a cartridge but being issued a 9mms it's what he dealt with.

    Told him my preference for 45 was from years of training, and the 1911. His justification for 9 was that comparing fully loaded pistols to each other, the 9 could produce more foot pounds of energy based on the number of rounds they carried.

    We agreed that capacity and energy have zero impact on effectiveness if rounds miss. Truth be told there is little difference in target effect amongst standard carry cartridges if comparing Apple's to Apple's.
    For me it's about what I'm comfortable with, accurate with, and am willing carry and train with. For many I've talked to, it's more about the cool factor of the pistol they carry. I've seen it with block guys, bereta, 1911 of different brands, h&k, all of them. Nothing scarier than some tacticool guy shooting on the range with no training or skill to speak off, but all the latest and greatest gadgets, and no muzzle awareness.
     
  11. Medic17

    Medic17 Supporter Supporter Bushclass I

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    @Gruntinhusaybah
    Southern New England

    The first pistol I purchased was a G23.
    At the time the Clinton Crime Bill was in effect, due to the limited capacity, getting a more powerful round in a compact pistol made sense to me. I was going to go with the G32 (.357 Sig)
    That caliber was the current rage and seemed to maximize the limited 10 round capacity with a whiz bang round. With that said my dealer did not have any ammo to go with the gun. So no sense getting a pistol that you could not find ammo for. The G23 (.40S&W) it was.

    After taking a few classes I switched to a G19.
    9mm was still a wussy caliber but the shot timer and rounds on target did not lie.
    The 9mm turned out to be not so bad of a cartridge after all.
    Its been my go to for over 15 years.

    Fast forward to present day...
    The magazine restrictions are once again back in place.
    More single stacks are showing up at the range.
    10MM and .45ACP seem to be becoming more popular in my area.

    I hate to admit it I have been browsing offerings from Sig and Dan Wesson.
    A year or two ago I would have laughed at the thought of a pistol other than a Glock.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2018 at 7:40 PM
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  12. roadwarrior

    roadwarrior Supporter Supporter Bushcraft Friend

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    Been there done that, I have been sticking to 9mm as well.
     
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  13. slysir

    slysir Guide

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    If you live in a state with magazine restrictions...carry more than one gun!! :rolleyes::cool:

    -John
     
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  14. Tye

    Tye Scout

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    Bullets don't kill people, or animals. Lost of blood or brain matter does. Now you can empty a vessel through a large hole faster than through a smaller hole, that being said you can put a lot of big holes in a vessel but if they don't hit where the liquit is stored nothings getting emptied. So shot placement with a modern sized defensive round is better than a bunch of inaccurate large holes.

    So if you can shoot a large caliber accurately carry a large caliber regardless of magazine capacity. But here's something to think about stress shooting generally equals on of two things depending on training a few rounds fired or a really large number fired.

    Review of actual shooting that have either been audio or video recorded when you break down the incident frame by frame you can easily have 6 rounds fired in a second.

    When we started applying this theory to training encouraging a shooter to fire as many rounds as they could in a set time I.E. 3 seconds, we would see a marked pause that reflected prior training shot series I.E. 2 rounds pause then 2-3 rounds, instead of a rapid steady 5-6 rounds. Speed and accuracy can be brought together with practice. But open and closed muscle movements are applied at a point you can't stop a trigger pull. Example being have a shooter shoot as many rounds as they can until the cease fire command be it verbal or sound I.E. whistle or buzzer is called. You will fire additionall rounds because the relay from your hearing to your brain to your hand is done in 10ths of a second butnit still not fast enough to stop that muscle movement that has become Repetitive.

    Ok sorry folks somewhere in this I got lost from the original point. Carry what you shoot accurately and fast if need be.
     
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  15. Metaldog

    Metaldog Scout

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    Beat me to it! I have carried a 1911 for 30 years. It is what I am used to, and what I am most comfortable with.

    No restrictions on magazines. I usually carry more than one handgun, anyway.
     
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  16. Dubhelix

    Dubhelix Supporter Supporter

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    If 10rd mags were all there was, I’d still tote the g17/19.

    I can still shoot it mo’ bettah and faster than a 40/45/etc.

    An efficient reload takes what, 3 seconds?
     
  17. ra2bach

    ra2bach Bushmaster

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    you're correct in that terminal ballistics are similar among properly expanded duty or SD ammo but projectile failure is extremely common when it passes through a garment or other medium. it can fail either from a plugged cavity causing failure to expand, or the opposite where uncontrolled expansion occurs and limits depth of penetration.

    smaller projectiles rely on expansion and higher velocity to replicate performance of larger heavier bullets.

    but what do I know, I carry 357SIG because I like it...
     
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  18. oldpinecricker

    oldpinecricker Guide

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    Ideho of coarse
    Last ammo shortage.

    9mm was nowhere to be found while there was some 40s&w availability. If one has no ammo the mo' better faster means nada.

    Another point to consider is more progressive locations might not only legislate limits on capacity, but it's possible they'll do the same to JHP ammo. Then the consideration becomes how do you like packing 9mm ball?

    That's my problem with the "9". It comes with the presumption that high performance JHP ammo is always going to be available to feed it. This is the sole reason I'm not fond of 9mm.
     
  19. Medic17

    Medic17 Supporter Supporter Bushclass I

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    Interesting perspective!
     
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  20. WY_Not

    WY_Not Supporter Supporter

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    Another consideration for the single stack is that for those of us with more weight than we'd like is that they can conceal a little easier. My 1911 is not as noticeable as my SA XD Service 9mm. The single stack lays flatter.
     
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  21. Bigghoss

    Bigghoss Scout

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    I've heard great things about Dan Wesson. A stainless Dan Wesson Specialist 9mm is one of my grail guns. If I lived in a 10-round state I'd have spent the money already.
     
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  22. jstert

    jstert Scout

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    i ccw the largest caliber in the smallest platform that i can comfortably and very discreetly carry; happily and easily shoot 50 rounds of essential practice at one go; and reliably hit center mass with at self defense distances of 15 feet. rather than one shot stops i want consistent first shot hits, as im a civilian looking to use my ccw to disengage from, not engage, a two-legged threat. i tend to ccw smaller calibers because i haven’t yet found a larger caliber that addresses a threat with near-miss concussive shock waves or shrapnel. i save the larger calibers for static defense, protection in places with apex four-legged predators removed from most humans and range fun. my commonly preferred, two-legged locale, ccw calibers thus start with the numbers 2 or 3. i like the naa mini 22lr with oversize grips, ruger lcr 22lr, taurus pt25 poly 25acp, naa guardian 32acp, any 38 snubbie with wadcutters and a newly acquired sig p238 380acp.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2018 at 2:25 PM
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  23. Dubhelix

    Dubhelix Supporter Supporter

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    It’s a fair perspective, but doesn’t change my calculus.

    I like to keep several cases of ammo on hand. If there’s a shortage, I train a little less, or...more efficiently. A 50rd box every two weeks or so is adequate for skills maintenance, and that’s about a case a year.

    I don’t reload 9mm, but I may start. Maybe. At ~20¢ per it’s marginal.

    There’s ammo out there that’s as cheap as it’s ever been. Go buy a few thousand for a rainy day. If you buy by the box at Wally World, you’re not taking supply seriously anyway.

    While hi-tech jhp’s are obviously better, I wouldn’t be too upset if Ball was all I had. I run 147 grain subsonics. Heck, there’s even some benefit to training with whatever load you carry.

    Shot placement, 3-5 rds at a time, and more than adequate penetration....ball ammo isn’t so bad. Not optimal, but hey, handguns suck anyway.
     
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  24. zerk

    zerk Tracker

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    Yes bullets expand more now. But you can't argue that small bullet is just as good. They question is what is enough. Though you do also have to factor fast small bullets. I'll take .357 over 38, but that is based on speed. Ill also take 44 special over 38, based on bigger bullet. I do carry a 38 though.

    I don't carry a semi auto so 10 round doesn't mean much to me. But if I was concerned about having enough gun, I would being weighing whether I though each shot was enough.

    Now you shoot me with darn near anything and I am stopping, but while maybe crazy, not on drugs. I am not saying what is best. But I do get the point if you can only have X amount, make them count. Not saying 9 is not enough. But I think the reason for a 9, smaller size gun, or more capacity. IMO. Plus easy to shoot.
     
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  25. scottman

    scottman Guide

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    UMC 115JHP . Advantage to the 9mm.
     
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  26. Medic17

    Medic17 Supporter Supporter Bushclass I

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    I would say that is a fair assessment.
    It is amazing what you can accomplish doing one shot drills.
    During the shortage I would practice drawing from concealed against a 6" target 10-15 yards away.
    All shots against the timer.
    Fifty attempts scored with time and hits would do wonders for self evaluation.

    I would agree its a wise decision to keep some practice and carry ammo on hand.
    The stuff is like the stock market.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2018 at 9:53 PM
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  27. scottman

    scottman Guide

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    one is also kind of ignoring some 9mm handguns have spare caliber options- and or a training pistol in a different caliber if you can make POI the same. Paul Harrel trains and carries 9mm JHP 115 UMC. They expand from shorter conceal carry pistols too. I can shoot 4 carry rounds for around a dollar. They can shoot quite well from point blank to 100 in some guns.
     
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  28. zerk

    zerk Tracker

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    I suspect most of us just buying another gun, if we want 2nd caliber to practice. Maybe 50 years ago.
     
  29. scottman

    scottman Guide

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    Some. If working with RMR costs increases for spare pistols
     
  30. zerk

    zerk Tracker

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    I realize it is easy to spend other peoples money. But I think many people just buy another gun. Most people have many guns these days. I don't know how it compares in today dollars, but I suspect guns are just cheaper with respect to wages, to what people had years ago.
     
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  31. scottman

    scottman Guide

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    while I see some with 1k plus RMR handguns I'd say they aren't the common average pistol owner
     
  32. alukban

    alukban Guide

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    Why?

    ...because one is simply trying to maximize the amount of deliverable lead - ballistics be damned.

    (15 + 1) x 124 gr ~= 2000 gr
    (7 + 1) x 250 gr ~= 2000 gr
     
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  33. Dubhelix

    Dubhelix Supporter Supporter

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    That’s a neat way of looking at the equation.

    I guess (17+1) x 147 gr = 2,646 gr

    I suppose ten round mags do limit the 9mm total payload.
     
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  34. Medic17

    Medic17 Supporter Supporter Bushclass I

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    I completely agree, micro guns can be harder to shoot.

    That is not really a fair assessment though, two totally different pistols.
    Even the lightweight Commander sized 1911 with an aluminum frame weighs three times the LCP does.
    9oz vs 30-40oz depending on 1911.
    Plus your talking about a 2-3 finger grip vs a full grip.

    Have you ever shot a G17 alongside a G21?
    Or similar sized 1911s in 9mm and 45acp?
     
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  35. WY_Not

    WY_Not Supporter Supporter

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    @Medic17 Agreed. The comparison of the two was more of an afterthought and tangent to the original topic.

    I've only shot a Glock on a few occasions. Not a fanboy knock, they make a quality product, just not for me. They just weren't as comfortable in the hand as my 1911 or my SA XD Service 9mm.

    My 1911 is a Colt Commander. So, it is steel and that weight affects shooting. I am not a small guy and the extra carry weight doesn't bother me.

    For me it is still easier to shoot and get back on target than my SA XD Service 9mm. Whether that is an ammo thing or pistol thing, I can't say. Could very well be a product of a couple decades of familiarity.

    I take the Appleseed philosophy to heart... shoot what ya bring. I carry/shoot that old 1911 because that is what I am comfortable with, what I know best, and am set up for. I could (and do) buy and shoot other pistols but at the end of the day the 1911 is what I prefer to carry and keep by the bed at night.

    In the end I think it is more important to carry something you know and trust than to get too worried about this caliber vs that caliber. Pick a pistol or two, get regular range time with them, and carry. For me it is my 1911 and LCP. The 1911 is the preferred carry but sometimes the venue or clothes just don't make it feasible. That's when the LCP gets grudgingly carried.
     
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  36. scottman

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    Another way to look at it, MORE opportunity rounds to make hits per ammo weight load out.
     
  37. freebirdfb

    freebirdfb Bushmaster

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    I don't understand it either. I'm guessing most people have trained their minds to think they need a lot of ammo, and fail to realize that a 6 shot revolver was enough. Maybe people think that a 6 shot revolver is close enough in capacity to the old 30-30 but in today's world with people carrying out shooting acts with an AR that they should have similar ammo capacity to that threat? So perhaps forcing ammo capacity creates a fear for many ccw carriers.
     
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  38. freebirdfb

    freebirdfb Bushmaster

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    I'm similar to werewolf won in that a single stack fits better in my hand so I have been goofing off online trying to look at practical comparison of the 380 vs 9mm debate and it seems to me that too many people get wrapped up in just ballistics instead of the whole picture. I'm not wanting to derail and start an argument. I would consider the .38 the base standard for a carry pistol and looking at ballistic numbers the .380 are higher. If my memory is correct the .38 +P and .380 are similar. But looking at things a bit more objective than just muzzle energy and fps data you can see why the debates never die, both get the job done. When my Dad and I were looking to get my first deer rifle my Dad gave me a ballistics book and let me study the numbers. I quickly came to the conclusion for a short distance woods rifle they all will work.

    In essence this round count of large bullet diameter to fewer rounds really isn't any different than a 243, 30-30 , or 30-06 for a woods deer rifle. In the woods, I think my longest shot at a deer was around 75 yards. Now if I was shooting at deer across a pasture I could see an argument for a 270, 308, or 30-06.

    With all that rambling choosing the right gun for an individual needs to be based on more than crunching numbers.
     
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  39. Medic17

    Medic17 Supporter Supporter Bushclass I

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    @freebirdfb
    You bring up a valid point, many people feel a 5 Shot J-Frame is completely acceptable for a defensive pistol.

    2-3 more rounds could equate to the

    J Frame vs. .380
    or
    9mm vs. .45acp

    Arguments
     
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  40. Cro

    Cro American Grouch Hobbyist Lifetime Supporter Supporter Bushcraft Friend Bushclass I Bushclass Instructor

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    Regarding the calibers performing roughly the same within the 'duty carry' spectrum, Paul Harrell did a pretty good video on this. Specific to the 9mm v .40. I enjoy Paul's videos quite a bit and his 'meat target' medium for testing is superior to the gelatin blocks imo. He's simulating outer layers, muscle, bone, lungs etc etc.

    On the whole though I agree, there isn't a lot of difference within the duty carry spectrum, and tho I was a .40 guy for a number of years I've gone back to the .45 simply because I like it more than the other offerings. Personal preference.

    Finally, if you look at the statistics nearly all shootings are resolved with less than 3 rounds fired.

     
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  41. jstert

    jstert Scout

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    “carry something that you know and trust, rather than worry about caliber (or capacity)” says it well. thank you, wy_not.
     
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  42. tree-ratsniper

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    Reminds me of the old tale of the Texas Ranger that was asked by a reporter why he carried a .45, he replied "cuz they don't make a .46." :D
     
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  43. scottman

    scottman Guide

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    Great words . And can afford to practice with and is accurate!!
     
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  44. OutnBacker

    OutnBacker Guide

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    Numbers. While the tables and calculations may be impressive, the only ones I care about are how many I can get on target at 5 ft to 20ft - the real numbers that matter. Danger close range is where almost all handgun conflicts happen - not plinking at 10 yards (which is 30 feet away), or farther. For years I carried a Model 60 and never felt under gunned with only 5 rounds. My reasoning was my training - a constant regime of range time, firing at close distance with everything that gun could toss, and as fast as I could pull the trigger and keep hitting a pie plat with all five. I carried a Colt 1908 as an alternate, depending on clothing, and trained the same way with that. Both pistols were and still are absolutely reliable.

    I've owned and loved several of the the Colt Gov't model and the Combat Commander, both in .45, and have no complaints. But, they can be harder to conceal. Since all that, I've come around to the 9mm. Specifically, the Shield 9 and the 2.0 Compact. When I get the cash, I'm buying a CZ-75 Compact as well.

    Over-arching all others was a beautiful late '60's Browning Hi-Power, which , to me was the epitome of a combat pistol. The big Colt had the reputation for sheer knock-out impact, but the Browning was by far more popular around the world because of both its superb reliability and capacity. And, anyone who has shot one will agree - they are a lovely firearm in terms of controllability and accuracy.

    So, going from a revolver and an old Colt .380 to the 9mm was natural for me, especially since that pesky data shows a not-so-big- of a difference in terminal effects between the typical combat calibers. Of all the combat calibers, even during that recent panic, there was 9mm to be had if you looked hard enough, whereas other calibers simply disappeared. I couldn't find .380 or .45 to save my butt.

    To close, I go with what I can hit best and often with, thus the Shield and the excellent C2.0 - which I compare with the masterpiece Browning, plastic and stamped parts notwithstanding. Rounds on target, as fast as I can pull the trigger, til there ain't no target.
     
  45. FreeMe

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    Simple. We automatically gravitate to "bigger is better, and more is more". :D

    There really doesn't have to be more logic in it than this.....I want a pistol to be "this" size, and 10 of "these" will fit in it. Yeah, there is till some belief that a .45 is better than a 9mm, but even among those of us who don't think there's a significant difference, there's some bet hedging going on.
     
  46. Birdman

    Birdman Guide

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    It's a weird phenomenon, yet normal.
    I have my "more or bigger" is better friends. Actually the majority of them are that way. I clearly am not being a 1911 and revolver guy, and hate sharp recoil. Oh, and what's high capacity? :rolleyes:
    I do have one friend though, who CC's a Ruger SR22 and is freaking surgical with it. He trains, trains, trains. Wouldn't be my gun of choice, but I dont doubt him with it.
    I wish more people would focus on the training aspect vs the size or capacity.
     
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  47. Black5

    Black5 Supporter Supporter

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    I've been asked by family why I carry a 9 more often now. Simply, because my wife can handle it better if she needs to take it from me to protect herself.

    I don't sweat the caliber war. I don't know of ANY pistol round out there that has been ineffective 100% of the time. I change platform and caliber based on my locations.

    Now, i will say, if I had my druthers on this, if I know I have a really good chance of being in a confined, close quarters scenario I will take my Government 45 over a 9mm because, well, I've never been in a close quarters, point and shoot scenario with a 9mm.
     

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