Russian military exercise jams GPS signals in parts of Norway...

Discussion in 'Preparedness' started by x39, Mar 8, 2018.

  1. x39

    x39 Bushmaster

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  2. Seacapt.

    Seacapt. Supporter Supporter

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    Yessah, communication wise the reason most folks up here have at least a CB set, deep cycle 12V boat battery, cheap solar charger and mag mount antenna tucked away some where, not to mention the ones of us that are ham radio operators anyway. CB sets proved their worth for local and long distant cross country comms via relay during the major ice storm of 1997 when I could keep in touch with my daughter in California via CB relay nets. As per GPS I still have a compass , paper maps and know how to use both also pilots are still required to know how to navigate by other means than GPS.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
  3. x39

    x39 Bushmaster

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    @Seacapt. , when I first moved downeast it seemed there was a CB in every house, car , and boat. If you wanted to catch up on the latest gossip all you had to do was tune in. One still can listening to the fishermen on VHF.
     
  4. Vanitas

    Vanitas Supporter Supporter

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    Map books are like gold in my industry.... I have books for multiple states
     
  5. x39

    x39 Bushmaster

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    There's a good reason every first responder in Maine carries a copy of the DeLorme Maine Atlas and Gazeteer!
     
  6. camp casey

    camp casey Guide

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    I carry one for my state as well, hundred miles north of me my cell phone is inop.
     
  7. Bob_Spr

    Bob_Spr Guide

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    Every other year, I buy a road Atlas. Every chance I get, I buy detailed road maps for the areas I spend a lot of time in. And I frequently download topo maps. Power, GPS and cell phones can't be trusted.
     
  8. x39

    x39 Bushmaster

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    There are many "dead" cell reception areas in my immediate vicinity, another good reason not to put all one's eggs in the electronics basket so to speak.
     
  9. will62

    will62 Scout

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    Good article, kind of reminds me of my days working Navy Communications, satellite communications were the big thing and people were starting to forget how to use High Frequency (HF or shortwave frequencies). To keep every one proficient in the use of HF, the satellite would be restricted for routine communications. It was fun scrambling around getting all your circuits switched to HF and maintaining coverage when you were used to satellite.

    I still have a current atlas and road maps I use them quite a bit. In the field I use a topo map and compass but as a backup I do use the GPS on my phone. By using terrain association with my map and compass I can get where I need to go in the woods.
     
  10. Tangotag

    Tangotag Field Gear Junkie Supporter Bushclass I

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    There is a lot of interest for Russia with Norway. Both oil and maritime routing access has a lot to do with that focus.
    Specifically targeting Norwegian airline traffic and whom could be on-board should be no surprise even though they say it occurred during a Russian military training event.

    Okkupert is a decent Norwegian mini-series about a fictional occupation by Russia for Oil reserves.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
  11. WhisperInThePine

    WhisperInThePine Wubba lubba dub dub Supporter

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    Map and compass first and last. At work we're transitioning more and more into Avenza mapping software and GPS. I still make a map and take a compass though. Even if it means getting out later for the work day, I just don't trust positioning software.
     
  12. Walking Crow

    Walking Crow Supporter Supporter

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    At least when the USAF ran Red Flag 18-1 out of Nellis AFB about a month ago, then warned that they would be blocking GPS over a wide area.
     
  13. Jason10mm

    Jason10mm Tracker

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    So this was a broadcast signal that blocked/jammed the GPS signal? Aren't there multiple GPS systems, or are they all operating on the same frequency? I have heard that the entire system can be programmed to give less specific coordinates and I'm sure hackers can spoof either the signal triangulation or the map data to send things off course. I'm sure if there is ever a WW3 all those satellites will be the first things to get lased/shot down.
     
  14. x39

    x39 Bushmaster

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    Another article that I didn't link to because it was in Norwegian showed stock images of the Russian equipment used to do this. It was all mobile and consisted of several different types of antenna arrays.
     
  15. Seacapt.

    Seacapt. Supporter Supporter

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    Those mobile arrays jam GPS receiving units, no need to zap the NavSats themselves. Similar to the jammers we had in our cars to deflect police radar speed trap frequencies.
     
  16. Tor Helge

    Tor Helge Supporter Supporter Bushclass I

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    Was on local News just some week ago; Norwegian army are jamming the GPS signals the comming weeks. Users be warned.
    The military excersise Joint Reindeer (peculiar name) was held last week, and this warning was issued.

    Posted just to show that this Tech is not unique, nor exclusive to the russians.

    Almost any Electronic Device is possible to jam or shut off. Nothing to rely on really.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2018
  17. 1911srule

    1911srule Scout

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    I'd bet the Russian jamming is related to our military build up there and elsewhere. Lately we've been sending more tanks, ect there. I hope it is meant to be defensive in nature not offensive. Ukraine, Poland, Syria, ect. We were warned years ago by the Russians, NOT to deploy our missile defense shield. At that time the Russians told us they'd have no choice but to respond militarily. Hence the war in Ukraine. Globalist bankers gotta push war...
     
  18. 1911srule

    1911srule Scout

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  19. Ron

    Ron Guide

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    Well, given the fact theátv the Swedish government and its stooges are going out of their way to keep on spreading fear for the Russian bear and their kissing up to NATO over the past decades, I am not surprised counteractions are being taken. That matter in which they are taken, might be considered clumsy, but that seemingly is the only language understood by others.
    However I do think Sweden is doing so in order to divert focus from demestic to international issues. Another common thing, I suppose.
    Well all of this is politics, but the outcome might force us to apply many bushcraft skills someday.
     
  20. Midwest.Bushlore

    Midwest.Bushlore Supporter Supporter Bushcraft Friend

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    I'd say Russia has given Sweden plenty of reasons to be wary over the last 75 years.
     
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  21. gila_dog

    gila_dog Supporter Supporter

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    I wouldn't want to be the operator of one of those GPS jamming transmitters in a real war. A transmitter powerful enough to do what that thing does would be pretty easy to locate and bomb, unless all our cruise missiles and airplanes are completely dependent on GPS. ???
     
  22. Ron

    Ron Guide

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    In what way?
    Sweden has stayed clear of conflict for more then 200 years and no open acts of aggression from the Sovjet/Russian side either.
     
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  23. kid_couteau

    kid_couteau Warrior Poet at Heart Supporter

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    Two words
    HAM Radio
    :)
     
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  24. Midwest.Bushlore

    Midwest.Bushlore Supporter Supporter Bushcraft Friend

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    Not just Sweden, I didn't mean just them. But I am assuming you have some knowledge of Russian actions and foreign policy.
     
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  25. x39

    x39 Bushmaster

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    While I mostly agree with your premise, there was that "unfortunate" navigational incident with the Soviet submarine at Karlskrona back in the '80s.
     
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  26. Ron

    Ron Guide

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    Where did they not have "incidents" during the 80's, them Russians?
    The official Swedish media are very proficient at blowing up or making up stories like that.
    Would the Russians be interested in what Sweden does and look like? I am most certain they would, however I have this nagging sense that, if the government really thought it likely that that massive neighbour to the east would be a real threat, they would not have stripped the nation from a working military and would have kept those emergency stocks.
    Nah, they need a bogeyman to point to, when they execute their own little schemes. Like censoring Google or crushing any opposition to their insane political correct stances and actions.
     
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  27. Midwest.Bushlore

    Midwest.Bushlore Supporter Supporter Bushcraft Friend

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    Be that as it may, it's an undeniable reality that Russia has been engaging in very provocative behavior. They're invading other countries, carrying out multiple false-flag operations around Europe, brutally repressing dissidents both at home in Russia and in other sovereign countries and engaging in a highly sophisticated campaign of election tampering in their own country and in the US (obviously the US has done this for many years as well). I'm not implying Sweden faces a more grave threat than any other county but Russia and China are certainly exploiting the extraordinary weakness of the current administration in the US to expand their influence. As the US wanes the power vacuum will likely be filled by a rising China and perhaps a resurrected "Russian Bear".
     
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  28. Ron

    Ron Guide

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    Ohh, I am in no way even suggesting the Russian government and its leaders are saints. If anything they are equally dispicable (I would use stronger terms of the forum allowed) as any of their counterparts on those levels.
    But for all I know we could equally well point toward the any other major player in geopolitics. I am just tired of hearing "it's the Russians" whenever someone cocks up and needs a diversion. I am pretty sure Sweden's NATO-based "neutrality" lies beneath these infantile and laughable acquisitions.
    The US and Europe's days in power are numbered and I am pretty sure you're right about the other 2 filling in the vacuum soon. In a perverse way I sort of hope so, in order to deal with another major nuisance here in Europe, but it remains to be seen if the cure is not worse then the disease. However there's still the possibility that the other 2 will have more then enough on their plates, both foreign and domestic, with collapsing financial systems being only a matter of time.
     
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  29. 1911srule

    1911srule Scout

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    The Russians weren't the provocateurs , the US was imho. Years ago the Russians told us if we deployed the missile shield around their country, military action would be their only option. We deployed it all around them, hence the invasion of Ukraine/ Crimea. We started it, and have tried to make them look like they provoked it. Blame globalists in the US government for risking American lives for their agenda..I think they want to start war , same reason we have the Russian boogyman who "interfered in our elections. Pure crap. Also related...Syria where the Russians and US planned a gas pipeline to supply Europe. All about money and control.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2018
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  30. x39

    x39 Bushmaster

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    Well yes indeed, there is that. Which is probably one of the reasons the powers that be are making so much noise about Russia...
     
  31. Ron

    Ron Guide

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    I think we understand each other @x39
     
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  32. SwampYankee64

    SwampYankee64 Supporter Supporter Bushclass II

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    From what I know about the navstar system, the signal that those birds send out is not very powerful at all. A few years back, the GPS guided landing system kept going down at Liberty Airport in New Jersey. FBI, ATF, DHS all descended on the area looking for terrorists trying to crash a commercial airliner. I turned out that a guy driving delivery for a company like FedEx had bought a commercial/off the shelf GPS jammer so that corporate hq wouldn't be able to see him running off for a nooner with his hunny. The delivery facility was next to the airport, and everytime he turned it on it was jamming the gps for the landing signals. An eagle eyed toll taker on the Jersey turnpike is the person that cracked the case from what I under stand. They spotted it in the truck and thought that it was being used to bypass paying tolls and reported the truck.

    Blue force trackers were spoofed in Iraq, and US Marines and Army soldiers on maneuvers along the Korean peninsula have been spoofed as well. Even slightly distorting the signal will throw off the ability to accurately position locate with GPS. Spoofing is different than completely jamming, but no less dangerous. Our reliance on GPS being accurate down to a 5 meter grid square, to the point of blind faith has created a very dangerous situation.

    There are something like 31 or 32 sats in orbit right now, and I think around 18 are needed for a solid position location. US launched sats are used by the majority of government and private gps locators around the world. Something like 12 of those birds are about 20 years old and their signals are extremely weak. As I understand it, spoofing distorts that signal just enough to make that positional location slightly off. Because 18 different signals are needed to geolocate, odds are the receiver will be picking up atleast 4 of the oldest sats. The "signal" is time stamped coming from each bird and they are all in sync. GPS works kind of like radar in that the receiver calculates the difference in time it takes to register all the signals and by noting the difference in time, it can tell where in the world it is. Spoofing alters that time stamp slightly and an jamming blocks it all together. I think that both do this by some kind of electronic interference.

    Think about the hell that would raise with GPS guided munitions like arty shells and missiles. Spoofing one of those just a bit could drop it on a school instead of a bunker. It could also be used to guide a patrol into an ambush if they were solely guided by gps. In an urban environment like the streets of Ramadi, Baghdad or Kabul, a bunch of school kids running around with backpacks with these jammers sewn into the liners could unknowinly throw off our blue force trackers and cause some blue on blue casualties. This is a damn scary thing if you ask me.

    s/f
    Buzz
     
  33. Seacapt.

    Seacapt. Supporter Supporter

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    The greatest thing about all this fast paced advance sat.com/control technology with all the counter, anti, anti anti counter measures with military weapons is if the time comes to use it no one will be able to depend on it and will end in a stalemate. In the mean time all this hi tech development is making a lot of money for a lot of people.
     
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  34. Ron

    Ron Guide

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    What scares me most is the total dependence on such systems and the volnerability of them. Break a single, small link and everything dies down.
    I wonder what it would take to knock out a satelite or 2.

    Not just the developments, but the logistics to keep that stuff operational too. I see organisations in which operators or hackers are becoming of much more importance than the average soldier, maybe even fighter pilots. Equally easy to take out, but a lot harder to train.
     
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  35. SwampYankee64

    SwampYankee64 Supporter Supporter Bushclass II

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    I think it would take a very good hacker, with the support of a state actor or a state actor alone to actually "knock out" one or two of those satellites. I think that its been shown that actually disabling the satellite isn't required though, altering or denying its signal is plenty to muck up the works. Because so many things are interwoven with technology now, a very small action in one place can have a ripple effect in a lot of places. Id say its almost like the "butterfly effect".

    I don't know what the solution is either. We're discussing GPS here, but the underlying theme to this conversation and a lot of the conversations I have seen popping up here lately is "the times are a' changing", and how do we deal/evolve to the new times. I'm 40 years old, so I think that I kind of fall smack in the middle of this change. The generation prior to mine tend (in general) to use technology as a supplement to their lives, and the generation following has been fully immersed in it since they popped out of the womb. It can be a great equalizer and democratizer, allowing the common person to amplify their voice in a way that would have been unthinkable even 25 years ago. It can also be, in my opinion atleast, a weapon almost as powerful as an aircraft carrier or a battalion of Marines.

    This is more of a general feeling of mine, really not specific to this particular thread, but since this is where I am typing I will put it out here. Until we can settle on a basic set of facts, set a baseline for reality, however you want to put it, we are at the mercy of those that can manipulate the technology we are beholden to. This isn't the place to establish that baseline, I've only brought it up to get people thinking. I suppose that a person can unplug from the technology as a way to insulate themselves from what is happening, but in doing so they sever their ties to society as a whole. That insulation creates distance, and through distance comes misunderstanding. It's like looking across a field with and without bino's. The "coyote" ya see with the naked eye on the far side might actually turn out to be someone's beloved shepard when you put a pair of bino's on it. I'm beginning to ramble, so I will end with this. Like it or lump it, tech is here to stay. It will continue to evolve, and probably at a faster and faster rate. What is in our hands is figuring out how to live in a world WITH it, and not beholden TO it. That has been the case since man stood up on his hind legs for good and figured out that a femur bone made a pretty good tool, but also a deadly weapon. As the saying goes YMMV, but this is where I am at.
    s/f
    Buzz
     
  36. x39

    x39 Bushmaster

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    @SwampYankee64 , thanks for the thoughtful input. It kind of blends with some thoughts I shared in another thread regarding informational feedback loops in media and their effect on our perceptions and states of mind.
     
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  37. werewolf won

    werewolf won TANSTAAFL Supporter Bushcraft Friend

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    In 1956 the Andrea Doria was making her 101st crossing of the Atlantic on the night of July 25th in heavy fog either her radar operator or the counterpart on the Stockholm miss read their moderately new electronic instruments and expecting to make a port to port pass the two behemoths instead collided 300 miles from New York’s shores and the next morning the Doria slipped beneath the North Atlantic surface. Since then almost as many wreck divers have died trying to explore her as died that night.

    Move ahead to 1980’s the British and Argentines are at war in the South Atlantic. The English sea Harriers are said to be outclassed by the Argentine French built Mirage and American A-4’s but that is not the case. The Sea Harriers had a 100 percent kill rate against zero losses in engagements with their opponents. However Sea Harriers would splash each other in two mid air collisions with each other, misread radar again getting the blame.

    The HMS Atlantic Conveyer, an unarmed supply ship operating as a relief ship, was mistaken by radar signature for the English aircraft carrier by two Argentine pilots who delivered a broadside attack of two Exocet missiles. They fired at a radar blip with no visual confirmation hitting what was effectively a hospital ship.

    Nature was not without fault to as sadly the SAS would lose 18 of their senior ranks when a Sea King helicopter struck a bird and crashed only 9 of the 30 men who went in the water survived. The SAS unit was returning from a week of recon spent with no fires or hot food in sub zero conditions. All were suffering frost bite and exposure injuries.

    Flash forward to 2017 and the US Navy was busy with all its ultra modern electronics colliding with container ships, no ships were sunk, but many sailors died in the two events. Human error again.

    Old school, new school it hardly matters as the results don’t change when man has to make decisions and take responsibility whether reading compass and maps or electronic screens.
     
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  38. Ron

    Ron Guide

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    Hej Buzz, times are a'changin' for sure.
    The way I see it, is that on your side of the Atlantic, you have a continent desperately struggling with finances amongst things, much worse then we on this side.... for now.
    Our continent however is being changed forever by an tidal wave of immigrants of a completely different background, racially, socially, culturally and religious.
    US power is in decline, islam is spreading uncontrolled and I do think especially China is rubbing it's hands together.
    Technology, especially communications, have completely taken over the majority of lives, putting even more strain on our western culture's survival. When things pop. and I am sure they will within a decade, technology will not save the day.
     
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  39. Afterburner

    Afterburner Name: Jon - Ham Radio Callsign: KK6IQK Supporter

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  40. x39

    x39 Bushmaster

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    Yep, that would be the point.
     
  41. Afterburner

    Afterburner Name: Jon - Ham Radio Callsign: KK6IQK Supporter

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    I think people would be shocked at how fast the entire satellite fleet orbiting Earth would be made into space junk in a really big conflict. Pays to learn to live low-tech and in here and now.
     
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  42. x39

    x39 Bushmaster

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    For sure. I see the whole bushcraft/primitive skills phenomena as sort of a pushback against technology run rampant. I've been around long enough to remember when being into this stuff just made a person a nut in most folks eyes.
     
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  43. Afterburner

    Afterburner Name: Jon - Ham Radio Callsign: KK6IQK Supporter

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    I did 32 years in defense and aerospace and I had the good fortune to also have family who were bushcrafters before the name was given to what we called "Outdoorman Living" where I grew up. Trouble with high tech is that it is a pyramid of capabilities that is increasingly fragile as you go further up the chain and it falls apart rapidly when stressed or attacked. I got into ham radio for this very reason since it is one bit of tech that can survive a lot of the types of electronic hi-jinx that would paralyze the rest of the communications infrastructure. I never worried about the nutty comments - I just smile and keep on learning more skills while the folks who jest don't realize that their world is an illusion... ;>)
     
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  44. bigfoot

    bigfoot Tracker

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    Interesting article, thanks for sharing! :dblthumb: A great reminder of how vulnerable we are with all our reliance on technology.
     
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