Siberian Style Yakut Knives

Discussion in 'Mullins Forge and Metalworks' started by EddieMullins, Oct 21, 2017.

  1. EddieMullins

    EddieMullins Scout Vendor

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2014
    Messages:
    626
    Likes Received:
    650
    Location:
    AR
    Stumbled onto some pics tonight of Siberian style axes and then the knives caught my attention. They are very similar in style to Finish knives but have forged depressions or fullers, at least it seemed to be a common trait. I have not typically been a fan of grooves or fullers, or intentionally leaving hammer marks in my work, but this has a look that is growing on me.

    After a little further research apparently the fuller is on 1 side only and traditionally this side of the blade had a flat grind or chisel and the other side convex.

    http://av-salnikov.livejournal.com/3501.html?utm_source=twsharing&utm_medium=social

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakutian_knife

    The grind is quite interesting as are the theories. The design results in a knife that has to be made right or left handed.

    Anyone use or familiar with this style of knife? Still trying to wrap my head around it.


    siberian.jpg
     
  2. boisdarc

    boisdarc Scout

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2015
    Messages:
    422
    Likes Received:
    817
    Location:
    Illinois
    I've watched a few youtube videos of people making them. Interesting knife, and interesting people that employ that knife. I am inherently fascinated with genetics, history, and unique groups of people. It is on my "long" list of knives to make.
     
  3. CivilizationDropout

    CivilizationDropout -MOA #17-MYOG #71- Supporter Bushcraft Friend

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2010
    Messages:
    4,683
    Likes Received:
    18,520
    Location:
    The Swamp
    Get the heck out of here, I was just watching videos, then doing research on these! Curious as to how they handle, the "traditional" varieties aren't usually a bad buy.

    I saw a guy using it as a plane, making joinery cuts! I'd like to find a seller, pick up a blank, handle and sheath it.
     
  4. boisdarc

    boisdarc Scout

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2015
    Messages:
    422
    Likes Received:
    817
    Location:
    Illinois
    On a side note, Eddie I just went to your website. Those are some nice looking items.
     
  5. CivilizationDropout

    CivilizationDropout -MOA #17-MYOG #71- Supporter Bushcraft Friend

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2010
    Messages:
    4,683
    Likes Received:
    18,520
    Location:
    The Swamp
    @Skeptiksks, here's the other half of my Youtube binge.
     
  6. dhenson0

    dhenson0 Supporter Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2014
    Messages:
    290
    Likes Received:
    284
    Location:
    The Bluegrass
    I have been looking at those recently as well. I was hoping someone here would buy or make one and do a review on it.
     
  7. Vanitas

    Vanitas Supporter Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2013
    Messages:
    5,478
    Likes Received:
    3,086
    Location:
    New England
    It mimics the bone knives that used to be used. Honestly it would be better if they stopped using the depression and the reason why is quite simple... look how little edge you have before you sharpen back to the depression. Also the depression isnt uniform so eventually your edge wont be straight. These arnt heirloom knives... they might not even be lifetime knives depending on how often you use them. Just my opinion... I'm sure someone will send me a nasty PM over it.

    Also dont get me wrong, the convex one side flat on the other works fine... its the depression that causes issues with the edge. There are makers out there who make similar knives without the depressions. I've seen them but I didnt make note of the maker.

    Looking at the Wiki page you'll see what I mean about abandoning the depression... the one in the wiki is more of a fuller than the other one pictured.

    Oh and because you asked, I got to borrow one for about 30 min or so. Made a spoon with it. 30 min wasnt enough time IMO to get a real good feel with it but you can cut some really really thin shavings of wood with them. You get such a low cutting angle with it due to the flat side that super thin slices are easy peasy. At first I had some issues with it because I started at too steep an angle and it bit into the wood pretty deep. Once I got used to using the knife at such a low angle it was all good. I was at a Polish American event and there were some guys doing some wood carving and one of the knives they had was one of these. I let one borrow my RWFred while I borrowed his knife.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2017
  8. Sagarji

    Sagarji Tracker

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2015
    Messages:
    20
    Likes Received:
    18
    This idea is due to a misunderstanding on how to sharpen them. You sharpen a yakut by laying the knife flat on the fullered side. Over time the fuller gets smaller and smaller, but you always have an even amount of steel on the edge. If you were to sharpen it like a "conventional" knife, then yes eventually you would lose the edge. Sharpened correctly will result in an heirloom knife.
     
  9. Vanitas

    Vanitas Supporter Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2013
    Messages:
    5,478
    Likes Received:
    3,086
    Location:
    New England
    If the depression is not somewhat uniform then as you sharpen like that you still get an edge that eventually will not be uniform which will lead to spots that are difficult to sharpen. Look at the hammered one... that "jagged" looking depression eventually becomes your edge. As you continue to sharpen that part of the edge will become quite thin also. Yes it's a lot of sharpening but on that one pictured it kinda isn't.
     
    CivilizationDropout likes this.
  10. Sagarji

    Sagarji Tracker

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2015
    Messages:
    20
    Likes Received:
    18
    That isn't the case at all. As you sharpen you take steel off the entire back of the knife. The depression gets smaller the more you sharpen not only in its depth, but also in its diameter. The space between the edge and the depression will never be uniform. It will change shape as you slowly peel back layers of steel from sharpening, but if properly made you will always have plenty of steel between the knife edge and the beginning of the depression.
    The knife pictured above, if properly sharpened will over the course of many years wear away until there is no longer a depression at all. In my estimation at no time over the course of those sharpening will the edge meet that depression.

    Imagine a cereal bowl. The outside of the bowl is the edge. The inside of the bowl is the depression. You sharpen the edge by taking slices from the top of the bowl. Over time the bowl gets shorter as you take more and more slices off the top. However the distance between the outside edge of the bowl and the inside edge of the depression never changes. As the bowl loses height the inside also loses diameter.

    You could even make the inside of the bowl a bit bumpy like the depression of the pictured knife. The distance between the edge of the bowl and the inside depression wouldn't be uniform, but as long as there is enough distance between the two as you take off the top slices it doesn't matter. Sometimes it may be 2mm sometimes it might be 3mm, but that distance is never going to be 0mm if the bowl was made properly in the first place.
     
    CivilizationDropout and arleigh like this.
  11. Sagarji

    Sagarji Tracker

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2015
    Messages:
    20
    Likes Received:
    18
    I was thinking one could modify mora #2 into something like a yakut knife. Do a full flat zero grind on one side and then convex the other side. The full flat grind on one side wouldn't have the depression, nor be perfectly perpendicular to the handle, but I imagine the performance would be pretty close.
     
    CivilizationDropout likes this.
  12. Vanitas

    Vanitas Supporter Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2013
    Messages:
    5,478
    Likes Received:
    3,086
    Location:
    New England
    I guess made properly, but it doesnt matter if the bowl is worn away from the top. In sharpening this knife will will wear steel not just from the flat side but from the edge as well. For the simple fact to make it sharp you have to do so. These sharpen the opposite you would a chisel. I've seen old chisels that have been worn quite thin from use and sharpening and look like stubs now.

    You seem to know quite a bit about these knives ( more than my limited exposure for sure). The one I got to play with was fairly thin (had obviously been used a lot). How thick should these be made normally? One would assume the number of sharpenings would depend on two factors, one steel quality (better edge holding means less sharpening) and two is blade thickness. Also other than saving steel and reducing weight is there any other practical purpose to the depression anymore?
     
    CivilizationDropout likes this.
  13. 10eyedtofu

    10eyedtofu Scout

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2012
    Messages:
    297
    Likes Received:
    38
    oh yeah yakut style knives have become a current obsession of mine and ive just about figured out how to forge them properly myself

    the tricky part is when you add the fuller because the blade will want to twist in wacky ways and the overall edge geometry can be confusing since ive seen some in the center and others like a chisel
    also take note that the fuller in on the dominant hand side so if you are left handed, fuller on left side..right on right
    really though, there are a lot of variations and methods to make them

    the fuller does a few things too
    1. it allows for a much wider and lighter blade using less material( some knives can even be made to float)
    2. it adds strength ( think of a steel I beam)
    3. it creates less friction when cutting due to the thing being cut lifting up off the blade instead of dragging on it
    4. makes sharpening easy too due to less material being taken away and in contact of a stone

    since his live journal was posted, its worth mentioning that Anton Salnikov also makes and sell his knives on a facebook page called "siberian handmade & forged knives"
     
  14. Primordial

    Primordial Supporter Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2017
    Messages:
    647
    Likes Received:
    4,856
    Location:
    Upper Great Lakes
    First off I never used one, but it would seem to be that if you were right handed, and holding the knife in your right hand like you'd be using it in a normal grip, the fuller would be on the left side of the knife, not the right? I assumed the flat fuller side would be cutting against any working material like if you were making feather sticks?

    The knife in the OP's photo would be for a right hander I assume?
     
  15. arleigh

    arleigh Guide

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2015
    Messages:
    1,891
    Likes Received:
    3,566
    Location:
    southern california
    The sharpening technique this knife implies, makes for a more consistent sharpening geometry through out it's service . quite ingenious actually. One might make it double edged and be capable of sharpening both at the same time. efficient, fast, and simple.
    Since I use sand paper an a hard flat surface for sharpening, it would work perfect for me.
     
    jasam and CivilizationDropout like this.
  16. Self Reliantist

    Self Reliantist Scout

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2014
    Messages:
    821
    Likes Received:
    613
    Location:
    PNW temperate rainforest
    I'm thinking one may want an opposing pair for fine carving duties, switching twixt the two depending on the wood grain and desired direction of cut.
    I would tend to want to have a bookended pair.

    Norm
     
    CivilizationDropout and arleigh like this.
  17. 10eyedtofu

    10eyedtofu Scout

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2012
    Messages:
    297
    Likes Received:
    38
    you would think so but no, these arent like Japanese kitchen knives with the flat being towards the material being cut.
    they can however be reversed and used with the flat and pulled or pushed forward like a draw knife or hand plane
    this vid gives a better idea towards the function
     
  18. Primordial

    Primordial Supporter Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2017
    Messages:
    647
    Likes Received:
    4,856
    Location:
    Upper Great Lakes
    Thanks for the info!
     
    CivilizationDropout likes this.
  19. 10eyedtofu

    10eyedtofu Scout

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2012
    Messages:
    297
    Likes Received:
    38
    plenty of neat vids about them on youtube its just that many arent in English or have sub titles then others are difficult to find :(
    if it ever quits raining, I'll be trying to forge a few more with the hopes of finally figuring out that last details i am missing
     
  20. EddieMullins

    EddieMullins Scout Vendor

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2014
    Messages:
    626
    Likes Received:
    650
    Location:
    AR
    After some further thought it occurs to me this geometry reminds me of a straight spoon knife, and they are sharpened similarly to the spoon knives made by I think Westerman, and how I have made some also, with a fuller inside. The inside "flat" is sharpened rather than the outside bevel.

    I think I would have to use a convex and flat sided knife with and without the fuller , as well as a similar blade with a more conventional grind to determine how much benefit the design actually provides. I'm not sure I'll go to that level of testing, but suspect I will forge Yakut at some point to see if I like it.
     
  21. Primordial

    Primordial Supporter Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2017
    Messages:
    647
    Likes Received:
    4,856
    Location:
    Upper Great Lakes
    Be sure to post your handy work when you make it! I'd like to see the results!
     
    CivilizationDropout and Vanitas like this.
  22. 10eyedtofu

    10eyedtofu Scout

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2012
    Messages:
    297
    Likes Received:
    38
    here is another vid showing them in use
    having a hard time locating another vid that helped me out the most with forging but if i can find it then i'll post that too

    ok found it. watch till the end when the guy stands on it
     
  23. Primordial

    Primordial Supporter Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2017
    Messages:
    647
    Likes Received:
    4,856
    Location:
    Upper Great Lakes
    Impressive! Thanks for taking time to find the vids and share them again! I enjoyed watching them both. If you need a field tester for your prototypes you know where to find me! lol
     
    CivilizationDropout likes this.
  24. Vanitas

    Vanitas Supporter Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2013
    Messages:
    5,478
    Likes Received:
    3,086
    Location:
    New England
    That dudes heat treat is on point! Also shows what I was talking about previously, very shallow cutting angles due to the flat side. You can get super thin curls really easy. It's like using a thin full flat ground knife in that regard.
     
  25. 10eyedtofu

    10eyedtofu Scout

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2012
    Messages:
    297
    Likes Received:
    38
    anyone else try forging one of these yet? a ball peen hammer with a good radius is all you really need
     
    Primordial likes this.

Share This Page