Survival efficiency

Discussion in 'Preparedness' started by batmanacw, Apr 26, 2018.

?

Efficiency vs durability

  1. Efficient cutting tools

    32 vote(s)
    74.4%
  2. Indestructible cutting tools.

    11 vote(s)
    25.6%
  1. batmanacw

    batmanacw Guide

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    Which do you value more?

    A cutting tool that is efficient and effective?

    Or a cutting tool that is indestructible but may cost you an extra 1000 calories a day?

    You may believe that both can exist together but pick the one that matters most to you and explain why.
     
  2. central joe

    central joe Supporter Supporter Bushcraft Friend

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    I picked efficient because that is what I have, used correctly it will do the job. Used incorrectly, you can break anything. joe
     
  3. Muleman77

    Muleman77 Hobbyist Hobbyist

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    I go with efficient tools. As long as they are reasonably well made, I'm happy to use them with a little more care.

    If something needs beating, I can carve a club easy enough!
     
  4. kelpie13

    kelpie13 Scout

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    I would rather have a knife/axe I can sharpen with available materials (natural stone and steel) over one that requires a diamond impregnated stone.
     
  5. Vanitas

    Vanitas Supporter Supporter

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    Since you’re talking about knives based on comments in the I’m over full tangs thread I’d just like to know what tool is costing an extra 1000 calories a day. I’m sure the people in the getting in shape for the woods thread would like to know as it would greatly decrease their time to hit their goal.

    As far is indestructible vs efficient you can get both. However it is expensive to do so. I could not use a mora knife for my work. It just wouldn’t hold up. I can however use the mora 333 as a machete as I’m working right of ways. Arborist used to carry heavy duty chisels back in the day. A lot of the chisel knives you see are basically based on the chisels that were produced for Davey and Aspluhnd back when they had their own schools.

    I’d contend MP and Turley as well as a number of other makers make hidden tang knives strong enough. We have seen plenty less expensive rat tails fail so we know it’s possible they may not hold up when you need it to. It just depends on what you ask your knife to do. If I didn’t do what I do for a living it wouldn’t matter. I’d be able to use a mora for everything too.

    Yes my answer is convoluted but so is life. I mean according to some people you should never need a knife anyway. This is kinda along the same conversation. Hike ones own hike and use what works for you.
     
  6. EternalLove

    EternalLove Guide

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    Indestructable is my preferance.
     
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  7. Guttersnipe

    Guttersnipe Supporter Supporter

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    I'd prefer durability over efficiency if forced to choose.
    One doesn't need to be abusing a tool to break it. Accidents happen, especially in a "survival" situation where your mind and/ or body are more than likely not working at 100%.
     
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  8. Youcantreadinthedark

    Youcantreadinthedark Amphibian. Supporter Bushclass I

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    Not to pry (that might break the tang), but what do you do? Arborist?
     
  9. Vanitas

    Vanitas Supporter Supporter

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    Correct.
     
  10. Biker Bushcraft

    Biker Bushcraft Scout

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    Scalpel sharp. It is safer, less effort, and I cook allot when out in the bush so having a knife that can properly slice a tomato is a necessity.
    With an axe, same thing. It has to be sharp, hold that edge, and a proper shape to reduce effort.
    But I also think tools that hold a quality edge should be pretty indestructible. My Mora Black is a good example.
     
  11. arleigh

    arleigh Guide

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    I choose strength over elegance.
    Endurance through the tough times makes for a reliable tool.
    Life is not digital, it is analog . the parameters of survival require tools that can endure regardless of looks .
    One cannot always pick the situation they are sometimes thrust in .
    I would never use a strait razor for carving/processing wood or dressing game if I had hopes of using the razor still for shaving .
    Efficiency in one aspect ,may not be the same in another aspect. a specialist can be far more efficient in his specific field but does not necessarily function well in all fields.
    Indestructibility ,describes something that can endure all possible aspects of many uses including things well out side it's initial design ..
    Take the difference between the cabinet makers hammer, and an east wing steel handle framing hammer.
    The framing hammer can be used for cabinet making but the finish might not be as pretty ,but functional and the hammer would know no wear what so ever ,definitely indestructible .
    But the carpenters cabinet making hammer being lighter and smoother head perfect for what it is designed for and lite wood handle might not fare so well doing the framing work the east wing is capable of .
    Because I can do both I have both.
    But if I could only have one ,it would be the framing hammer.
    When it comes to knives ,if reduced to one ,I'd pick the full tang bowie over every thing else .
    Though it's large it functions for all that is necessary .
     
  12. NWPrimate

    NWPrimate Supporter Supporter

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    I lean more toward durability but don't necessarily find the two options to be mutually exclusive. Sturdiness doesn't necessarily come at the expense of efficiency for the way that I use cutting tools.

    A lot of my cutting tool use is geared toward fire, and a friction fire set is a great example of this for me. While a thinly profiled knife will be more efficient at carving the notch, every other step of the process is easier for me with a big blade; so the more durable option is the more efficient option in that case.

    I might feel differently if I were doing fine wood working or regularly skinning rodents, but I find that I am much more efficient with a heavier tool that I have the confidence to press into hard service. In my area, any sharp piece of steel can take care of the basic necessities, so I would rather carry something that I can beat on within reason.

    I would rather making shavings, or gut a trout with an axe than split wood to start a fire in the rain with an Opinel when it matters. A little creativity goes a long way in making a tool work outside of its ideal parameters; but similar to @arleigh 's point, I find that it is easier to press a sturdy tool into a finer task than it is to do real work with something delicate.
     
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  13. Bridgetdaddy

    Bridgetdaddy Guide

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    If it is an actual survival situation rather than a Bushcraft/camping situation, efficient is much more important. Actual survival should not last more than a few days
     
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  14. Guttersnipe

    Guttersnipe Supporter Supporter

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    A chainsaw is faster, and less calories burned then a hand saw. But without fuel, foul a plug, stops running, etc., you've got yourself a nice boat anchor.
    Not a great analogy, but one that comes to mind quickly.
    Or perhaps this.
    A silky saw, or bow saw. I'll take the bow. I can sharpen it fairly easy with my Leatherman, and it's more likely to bend, then break, like a folder would.
     
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  15. Jean

    Jean Guide

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    Survival is a couple of days, a week? So, elegance. (Actually, lightweight so that I actually have it on me, instead of in the truck.)

    Homesteading, etc then anything you cant maintain or repair is a liability.
     
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  16. Gumbi

    Gumbi Guide Bushclass I

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    Given that you posted this survey in the preparedness forum, I'd say the question needs to be better developed before it can be properly answered.

    But when I read your question, I immediately thought about the videos that wranglerstar has posted recently about the silky saws vs. the Amercan pattern crosscut saw.

    I would want the silky saw in my get-home bag in my car's trunk. It's light, portable, and very efficient at cutting.

    I would want the large, heavy American pattern crosscut saw at home, especially if I knew that it would have to last me several years. I would value it's durablility and the ability to resharpen the teeth.
     
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  17. batmanacw

    batmanacw Guide

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    My main point is that beating on your knife in a survival situation represents an expenditure of calories. If you work hard enough to destroy a reasonably durable knife then you will need to replace the thousands of calories it took to do that much damage.

    Add in the fact that often all your normal knife chores will burn more calories with thicker blades with thicker grind angles.

    When durability burns extra calories then this type of question comes into play.
     
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  18. Guttersnipe

    Guttersnipe Supporter Supporter

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    Just a little curious, 1000 calories a day extra is a lot. How long is this more efficient tool going to last before I wear it out?
     
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  19. batmanacw

    batmanacw Guide

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    Depends on you and how you use tools. I can build a fire with just about any knife I would bother to carry. I can also build it without chopping wood in most areas. Adding in a knife that chops well but makes feather sticks harder and carving the board and spindle harder costs calories. If it makes everything you do harder then start adding up what you will spend over the course of a day.

    Personally I'd rather sacrifice a small amount of calories to carry a light axe than spend far more calories using a knife to fill that role. The light axe is a more efficient tool.

    It is very likely that a nice light knife that carves well paired with a light but capable axe weighs close to the same as the heavy duty knife.
     
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  20. WILL

    WILL Guide

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    The only real world experience I have concerning this scenario are knives that are 1/4 thick and Eswing axes representing the indestructible tools vs. more traditional thinner bladed knives and traditional ax styles. I've had all the above and made my decision in real life for the tools I depend on. I was initially attracted to 1/4 inch thick knives and Eswing axes because of their indestructible reputations. After using them and also experiencing more traditional tool use, I'm hands down in the traditional camp. My vote...efficient and effective.
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2018
  21. atlastrekker

    atlastrekker Supporter Supporter Bushclass III Bushclass I Bushclass II

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    There is always a compromise, I always choose tools that are niether of your choices and both.
     
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  22. Black5

    Black5 Supporter Supporter

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    I think a lot depends on what your survival fantasy is.

    Survival usually occurs immediately after something unplanned. It will be more about the Indian than the arrow.
    That being said, if I know im going into an "Aw...s***" situation, I want a multipurpose tool.
    Hatchet or robust knife for me.
     
  23. arleigh

    arleigh Guide

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    You've crash landed during the fall (October) in vast expanse of Canada in a small commercial plane ,and with a few survivors.
    You were disallowed from carrying any of your usual gear due to weight and FAA restrictions.
    Sorting through the wreckage is found some kitchen gear, among them is found are a few kitchen knives to choose from, none of which are of "no" notable market name or value, and you been given the first pick ; from a fillet knife ,paring, steak, carving to a cleaver and every thing in between. enough for one knife each survivor. .
    In this desperate situation especially where people might choose to venture out on their own with out waiting for help, "if" it is to arrive your first choice is your only choice.
    Any sharpening might have to be improvised.
    What one might choose in the comfort of their own gear and casual situation might be very different here.
    One's choice now has nothing to do with brand, but the best configuration and the knowledge of the steel they are made of from what's available in these kitchen knives.
    Some thin stainless steel steak knife might not stand up to the rigors of wood processing to make a spear, but genuinely superb for processing meat if any is acquired . The big blade of a carving knife might be attractive and useful for a defensive weapon but again not suitable for wood processing .
    The cleaver may be the best tool for the event , providing an edge and weight for processing wood better than the rest, and processing meat, which in this instance does not need to be pretty.
    Even if the edge is not retained well, it's weight provides the kinetic energy to continue to do work.
    IMO
     
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  24. Grizzly Dave

    Grizzly Dave BCUSA Friend Bushcraft Friend

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    If style vs function is the question I will go with function.
    Rather than having a $200.00 Guchi axe from Sweden I would rather have a $50.00 axe, a 20.00 Mora for wood and a $20.00 Old Hickory
    Function breaks down as Axe-chopping Mora, processing wood and Old Hickory for butchering and preparing food. My extra money could be used to buy a pot, a tarp and a blanket
     
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  25. Black5

    Black5 Supporter Supporter

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    I go with @arleigh on the cleaver. I had that chosen before I finished reading his post. Yup. Cleaver over steak knife.
     
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  26. Ptpalpha

    Ptpalpha Supporter Supporter Bushcraft Friend

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    Thought provoking thread.
    The combination of lightweight axe/hatchet and "elegant" knife would be what I hope I'd have with me, if I get to choose from what I own it would likely be the 1.25lb True Temper hung on a 24" West Woods paired with the Survive GSO 4.7.
    And my Silky Pocketboy.
     
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  27. Bitterroot Native

    Bitterroot Native Indigenous Skills Junkie

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    I'm going with efficient cutting tools for a couple reasons. In nature, I don't think I could create an incredibly durable cutting instrument. However I can easily make an almost endless supply of fragile yet efficient stone cutting tools that can do almost anything a knife can do with a little know how and patience.
     
  28. GreyOne

    GreyOne Elder Lifetime Supporter

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    A scalpel is very efficient at some flesh cutting tasks.
    An axe is very durable and chops wood well.
    A BK7 OR BK9 chops good enough, can dress game well enough, can do most tasks acceptably.

    My point is that over specialized efficiency is bad. The formula I use here is: Efficiency, durability, versatility. Pick any two.
     
  29. Nakadnu

    Nakadnu OBSERVER Supporter Bushcraft Friend

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    Specialization is for insects.
    If I was put in a situation where I had only 1 cutting tool to survive with I want indestructible.
    I will most likely need to chop wood etc for shelter, cut cordage, process food, split wood, open cans, cut my way out of a freight train etc.
     
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  30. batmanacw

    batmanacw Guide

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    In my hands a mora is indestructible. Paired with even a simple hatchet I'm massively more efficient than with a sharpened crow bar.

    I was hoping this thread would be thought provoking and it is to an extent. You should always be looking at how you perceive your tool set.
     
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  31. Nakadnu

    Nakadnu OBSERVER Supporter Bushcraft Friend

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    There is no definite answer to your question as we are not all the same in our skillset, attitude, outlook, experiences or personality. Also a survival situation or SHTF event encompasses an almost unlimited amount of scenarios.
    Personally I would choose to prepare for the worst of these.
    A Mora may be indestructible in your hands, but probably not in mine. LOL

    Also I was mistakenly under the impression that this scenario was for only 1 cutting tool.
    After rethinking that part I would have a small knife a good saw and a big chopper for my cutting tools and use each as the need arises.
     
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  32. batmanacw

    batmanacw Guide

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    It always amuses me when folks think they will be limited to one tool. I travel for a living and I keep a bushcraft black, hawk, and an Opinel saw in my checked luggage.
     
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  33. arleigh

    arleigh Guide

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    I certainly do not recommend any one venture out with only one sharp.
    If something happens to the primary tool, that secondary best be capable of taking up the slack .
    You are fortunate if all your woods experience has been rain bows and unicorns ,I'm happy for you .I hope that fortune continues for you. I really do.
    I go round and round with minimalists that insist on taking near nothing ,and then end up borrowing ever thing to get their tush to safety.
    Scenario,
    You have made plans and told some one you going camping in such and such an area and expect to be back in a week .
    First day your hiking and swing around a tree and get your leg up to your thigh caught in a hole bound by heavy tree roots and boulders .
    Much as you tried you can't get free mean while the circulation in your leg is cut off. there is every indication your leg is broken.
    What do you wish you had ?
    You've got roughly 20 minuets.
    Fine toothed saws are good for cutting fast in dry wood but not so great in green or wet wood and further more these roots are dirty and loaded with dirt .
    Coarse saws are easier to maintain and can handle dirt a bit better .
    A small knife here is going to take a lot of time.
    And you certainly can't do much chopping with an ax next to your leg, so something that can handle being battoned is more appropriate.
    You fish knife may not last the duration of the problem. What you batton with, should be heavier than the edged tool being struck . A little 1" diameter stick is not going to have much effect on a full size ax, trying to cut into a 12" log .
    While I don't advocate getting one's self in trouble , but for the sake of learning something, it might not hurt to (with a trusted friend ) put ones self in the position of being captured in a relevant scenario to reason best means of attack to a problem.
    I've been caught between hard places, I already know the feeling.
     
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  34. batmanacw

    batmanacw Guide

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    Or I could just watch where I step......
     
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  35. Bitterroot Native

    Bitterroot Native Indigenous Skills Junkie

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    One time when I was about 8 or 9 I was hiking in the mountains behind my house and fell into a gap between a downed log and some rocks that I couldn't see due to like 5 ft of snow on the ground. My legs were wedged in between the two pretty tightly. I was stuck for a good 15-20 minutes! I couldn't pull myself up no matter how hard I tried. I was too far from home for anyone to hear me scream for help. After a few minutes I really started to get panicky but finally got my head together and dug myself a little shelf I could put my arms on and frantically pull my legs out with. It was an incredibly frightening situation! To this day I still remember the feeling of being utterly trapped and helpless.

    Minimalism isn't a bad philosophy to go by, as long as you know how to make due without or can make the item in the field with available materials.
     
  36. freebirdfb

    freebirdfb Bushmaster

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    Some good points posted above and this is where a good tool system comes into play, such as a kukri or other chopper with a 3-4" bladed knife piggy backed to it with a pocket knife in tour pocket.
     
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  37. Vanitas

    Vanitas Supporter Supporter

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    Some of us do not have the luxury of not going into places that may be more dangerous than others. There is a difference between doing this for fun and having a job that puts you out there. Take someone working SAR for instance. Hopefully they wont be working alone like I do but they have to check all those nasty little areas hikers get in trouble in, usually in really crappy weather at that. Or hell, take my job for instance where the public and politicians demand we go out and work in conditions that are unsafe for us to be working. If I'm on foot I'm not usually carrying more than 1-2 sharp objects, and one of those is a light machete so my knife has to be fairly robust and capable. I think about weight, versatility, etc every bit as much as you do only our situations are different leading to different picks in our options. Doesn't mean I dont like partial hidden tangs (love my RWFred) just means I've stopped carrying that one when I work.



    There is a post I believe in the Gossman Forums, its fairly old but describes a gentleman who had to pound on his PSK with a rock to cut through a chain because he stepped in a trap in an area there is supposed to be no trapping.
     
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  38. batmanacw

    batmanacw Guide

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    I am on a Southwest Airlines flight to St. Louis from Cleveland right now. I have a Kellam Wolverine (4oz) in my checked luggage, accompanied by a Rinaldi Calabria hand axe (16oz), and an Opinel no. 1 saw (4oz), and backed up by a SAK farmer (3 oz). I may stop carrying the Opinel no 8 I use as my edc blade but at 1.5 oz it's not a burden. All under 1.75lbs.

    I can process trees up to 6" pretty easily without abusing a single tool. I'm not going to process huge amounts of wood but I can keep myself warm enough in most parts of the country.

    The Kellam Wolverine is a very light 4 oz, but it can stand up to some pretty significant cutting forces and light batonning to get to the center of dry branches. I'm not sure why folks baton larger stuff that is perfect for feeding a camp fire. Most stuff I baton could be done with my opinel. Of course there is that Calabria.

    My Opinel no 8 and SAK Farmer are both small and mighty. They would most likely see as much or more work than the Kellam.

    Imagine your life depending on 1.75 lbs of light weight, effective, reliable tools instead of one knife the same weight.......:p
     
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  39. batmanacw

    batmanacw Guide

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    This is the cutting tools I carry all over the country as I travel.

    20180430_154741.jpg
     
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