The 40 needs to go away ....

Discussion in 'Firearms' started by scottman, Feb 11, 2018.

  1. TAHAWK

    TAHAWK Guide

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    The FBI caused it to be brought forth. The FBI decided in 2014 to abandon the .40 and purchased the 9mm replacements in 2016 - except the guys in the special units, like HRT, who never stopped using the .45.

    file:///C:/Users/HAWK/Documents/Taxes/Solicitation.Pistols.pdf


    "If shot placement is all that matters and stopping power is a myth what happened with the .38 long colt?"
    Ammoland

    "History doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme." Attributed to Mark Twain.
     
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  2. ManyHammers

    ManyHammers Supporter Supporter

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    When my son was about 9 years old my neighbor at the time let my son shoot his S&W .460 with factory loads,no problem. Hard to believe a grown man would P,M and whine about the .40 or Glock. If it feels like a firecracker maybe ol boy is holdin the wrong end.
     
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  3. kid_couteau

    kid_couteau Warrior Poet at Heart Supporter

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    I have shot everything from 22 short up to 50-110 and loved it.
    I really see little problem with calibers. Of course when I was younger and developed a flinch from my first 357 Mag I simply bought 3 boxes of ammo and just kept shooting it until I got used to it.
    Ya just got to man up sometimes.
    Kid
     
  4. Red Wing

    Red Wing Supporter Supporter

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    Look to the UN on why we switch. Look for the operators to use what really works.

    Shot placement is all that matters. Caliber can't make up for not thinking or making wrong decisions.

    The only way to counter an ambush is to fight through it. More of a justification for LEOs to go to auto vs. Revolver. How fast you can get lead downrange matters.
     
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  5. tomme boy

    tomme boy Guide

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    If you have hand problems the 40 is not a cal for you. It has NOTHING to do with being a pansy. No really has another to say about the recoil of a 9 or a 45. I have shot so many hundreds of thousands of rounds of them. I now have limited use of both hands partially because of shooting these. I can only shoot about 2 mags of them now and I am done.

    So how is that being a pansy? I hate the 40 and will never own one. Just about all glocks that blow up are 40cal. So what does that say?
     
  6. cbrianroll

    cbrianroll Professional Tinkerer Supporter

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    Interesting topic. I have the poormans sig...sp2022 in 40cal. I like it...comfertable, grouping is good enough(Im terrible in Amy caliber) and good price. I haven't held a glock in a long time...never liked the feel or look. I miss my kimber 45 ultra carry.
     
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  7. GreyOne

    GreyOne Elder Lifetime Supporter

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    I have a few decades of shooting experience. I even remember the Miami Dade firefight that caused the FBI much embarrassment and eventually caused them to drop 9mm and go to the 40 cal.

    That said, I understand recoil energy measured in foot pounds, and the difference in felt recoil based on the firearm weight. I know about muzzle rise and the measure of noise level in decibles.
    Will someone please educate me on the term "Snappy"? What is the working definition and how does one measure it and compare it across platforms and calibers. Is there a Firecracker scale?
    Or is it as I suspect a purely subjective term of art meaning "I don't like this"?

    Without any implications of pansyiness it does seem a rather untechnical term, possibly indicating a lack of real knowledge about firearms and the ballistics of cartridges both internal and external.
     
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  8. Riverpirate

    Riverpirate Supporter Supporter

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    We are such a gullible group, shooters. The reason for the 40 was well documented by the FBI. The 9 at the time just did not have the kinds of rounds we have now so they didn’t get the job done. The 10mm was just to big for many to handle. So came the 40 which is indeed a great defense round. But bullets have advanced. And while a 9mm will never be as good as a bigger 40/10mm, the advancement in bullets have changed the 9mm effectiveness. And of course the 9mm being a military round and more production will be less expensive to shoot. But what has really happened is me alry everybody who wanted a 40 has one. The need by manufacturers to sale more guns means we need to be told that others are better so we will now buy them. I have 9, 40,10,44,38 and any of them with the right bullet is a great self defense round. I will admit the 10 and 44 can be harder to shoot accurately if you don’t have the right technique. But a well trained person should be able to shoot a 40 just as accurate and fast as a 9mm.
     
  9. Midwest.Bushlore

    Midwest.Bushlore Supporter Supporter

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    Meh, I'm kind of mad at myself for reading the linked article at Alloutdoors. It's pretty much clickbait, some cheap controversy to drive traffic to their site. Personally I'm agnostic regarding the .40 S&W. I've had several but they never stick around. On the one hand it seems like the perfect answer to a question that I never asked, a solution in search of a problem. It doesn't seem to offer much if any real world combat performance advantage over the 9mm or .45 ACP. Still, it's a useful cartridge that can do a lot of things. I wouldn't necessarily choose it over a 9mm but if I had a .40 I wouldn't see a lot of reason to abandon it in favor of a 9mm, either.

    The main reason I got out of it was my desire to consolidate calibers and my fear of accidentally mixing it up with 9 mm round. I have mostly HK sidearms and mostly 9mm. For awhile I had a P30L in .40 but since I had four other pistols that use the same magazine I worried that I'd forget to swap out the spare 9 mm mag on my belt when I swapped holsters for my .40 cal.

    All that said, I think there's plenty of room in the world for the forty. If you don't like it, simply carry something else!
     
  10. tomme boy

    tomme boy Guide

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    I think what most think "snappy" is the sharp recoil impulse. Partially due to the higher pressure the round produces.

    You want to see snappy. I have one box of Hertinburger SMG ammo left from a early 90's. Shot a couple rounds of that out of a g17. It made my hand hurt! The box was labeled L7a1. A friend got it straight from an importer. He had it in his collector ammo. He was afraid to shoot it himself. So I was dumb enough to do it.

    http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_recoil_table.htm

    This article will help some to understand the amount of recoil
     
  11. Kmcmichael

    Kmcmichael Scout

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    I have watched thousands of people qualify with a .40. Most people in Law Enforcement are not gun enthusiast. I think the issued weapon should be a 9mm. If I were emporer, I would start them
    out on 22LR. If one wants something different and they could purchase it themselves.

    I shoot several calibers up to .475 Linbaugh. My preference is irrelevant. When I get older I will get a CZ 75 and purchase bulk 9mm ammo to plink with.
     
  12. Paulyseggs

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    Just thinking out loud here ....

    But the 40 in a small pistol seems like a nice backpackin pistol.

    Ballistics equal to the 38/40 .Modern effective hollowpoints.

    Take a Glock 27 for example . Holds 10. Smaller lighter easier to carry and reload.
    Around 27oz loaded .G23 is 22oz unloaded .
    Now look at a 4 1/2 SAA. Holds 5 .Weight is over 40oz .

    Both shooting a 180gr bullet of nearly the same diameter .

    If someone says their backpacking gun is a 38/40. Most people say cool . Say its a Glock you get the stink eye .


    With so many pd surplus 40s hitting the market i doubt its going anywhere.

    This is the service revolver purge of the 80s/90s
     
  13. Coryphene

    Coryphene Guide

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    Put a .40 in a tiny ultralight gun and it will sting your hands and wrists. I've shot a .380 that was too uncomfortable to shoot. It isn't about the size of the round, it is the size of the gun.

    Put a frangible .40 in a pistol and it will kill just as easily. I'd rather my wife carry a .380 that she can shoot over a .45 that she can't. A light hit is always better than a hard miss.

    If "stopping" power was the be all end all of handguns, there wouldn't be anything smaller than a .50cal. But since we live in a world where we have plenty of options, the 40 exists.
     
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  14. dirt7

    dirt7 Tracker

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    I'll take any .40's anyone wants to get rid of, I personally love mine.
     
  15. plumberoy

    plumberoy Guide

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    I understand there are many out there that can't handle recoil. But In the context of a police officer, they are In a job that physical altercation is a possibility at anytime . If they can not handle the recoil of a service size 40 cal they might be in the wrong job
     
  16. Nakadnu

    Nakadnu OBSERVER Supporter

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    I mostly carry an M&P compact in .40.
    The felt recoils is more than a standard 9mm round. But I would rather put a .40" hole in something than a .36" hole any day.
    I can't imagine a real world scenario where I would have to fire dozens of pistol rounds in a single incident to the point where recoil will be that much of an issue.
    If recoil is an issue while practicing there are many aftermarket accessories and grip styles that address this issue.
    No need to eliminate an entire caliber because of a few unhappy attention seekers.
     
  17. GunGoBoom

    GunGoBoom I'm not lost, I've just misplaced myself. Supporter Bushclass I

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  18. Cwlongshot

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  19. WILL

    WILL Scout

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    I think the .40 is declining in popularity because ammo improvements of late have made the 9mm just as effective. The 9mm does in fact have less recoil, is cheaper and holds more rounds, so if it's just as effective, why not switch back to it. The article largely misses the boat on that key point.

    PS- Never had a problem with the recoil of a .40 to begin with.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2018
  20. GunGoBoom

    GunGoBoom I'm not lost, I've just misplaced myself. Supporter Bushclass I

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    Harley Davidson vests and .380s all around!
     
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  21. CoolBreeze135

    CoolBreeze135 Scholarly Woodsman Supporter Bushcraft Friend

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    I’ve never been a fan of .40 S&W, but I don’t think it’s going anywhere.
     
  22. LongAgoLEO

    LongAgoLEO Scout

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    While I pontificated earlier in this thread about being generally impervious to recoil, I had forgotten about these. Thought I'd clear the air. :25:

    Winter '17 - 0692.JPG Winter '17 - 0693.JPG
     
  23. GunGoBoom

    GunGoBoom I'm not lost, I've just misplaced myself. Supporter Bushclass I

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    Good God, man! Are you fully healed yet?
     
  24. Red Wing

    Red Wing Supporter Supporter

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    Spec ops don't use .40s.

    It's a right tool for the job situation for me.

    I'm sure some of you have heard about the two westerville police officers that were shot and killed over the weekend. Westerville is a small suburb and where I work.

    Two officers were ambushed. All 3 fired their firearms according to reports, though it conflicts with the report of the first officer walking in and being fired upon.

    Suspect in the hospital, two officers dead. I've got no idea what caliber any of them were using. But two were shot in the head and one wasnt.

    No caliber can make up for starting the situation on the losing end.

    If you like it, shoot it.
     
  25. City Bushcrafter

    City Bushcrafter Supporter Supporter Bushcraft Friend

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    I jumped the 40 ship and adopted 9 when the ammo prices went crazy under the past clown. Never really had any issues with recoil. In all honesty I don't miss it. Don't think I'll ever buy another 40.
    That being said I don't think it should go away. People should be able to shoot whatever they want. After all, this 'Merica!
     
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  26. LongAgoLEO

    LongAgoLEO Scout

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    Yup. I'm good. These went through my son's S&W500 with a ported 8" barrel. It wasn't catastrophic, but did change my mind on the need to actually own one personally. I'm profoundly deaf bilaterally, so the bang was not overwhelming, but the concussion rearranged my organs for several days.

    (Not my tats; pic of my son holding this beast...)

    Winter '17 - 0691.JPG
     
  27. werewolf won

    werewolf won TANSTAAFL Supporter Bushcraft Friend

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    I had one of the first Berretta 92F’s in 9MM it was a neat pistol, but no one could get it to shoot accurately. In hindsight I should have returned it to the factory, but sold it instead. Next up was a Sig 226 in 40 and it was at that time the most accurate combat orientated pistol I had shot. I never found the recoil to be bad at all. The pistol did want to torque in my hand and the 12” to 18” of fire that poured out the barrel was mighty impressive. I carried that pistol for several years and in a fit of insanity sold it, one of very few firearms I have regretted selling off.

    I’m kind of in the market for a range gun/carry piece-I was torn between the 9 and the 40-I doubt the 40 will go away but if it is going to get expensive and hard to find I may have to really give the 9 more consideration than I was.
     
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  28. Cachersquirrel

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    I can think of quite a few smaller framed officers that had the mindset, fighting skills, and drive to dive into a fight when needed. These are skills that were developed over a lifetime. These same officers who do not always have the same ability to develop skills in shooting are disadvantaged at learning a new skill with a Glock 23, and it's not something that most agency admin even care to invest training time and ammunition to improve. The same recruits show remarkable improvement when shooting a G19 instead.

    It's not always about size. I've worked with full size large humans that knew how to shoot just fine that would make sure they weren't the next on scene, and smaller framed officers that weren't such a good shot but would get in and grab the problem by his balls when I needed help.

    There is more to the job than you have knowledge of.
     
  29. ArkansasFan

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    Another long winded reply from ArkansasFan:

    My first Glock was a .40 23. I still own it. It's well cared for, loved, and designated as my wife's "car gun."

    I was issued a Glock 22 that I, sadly, had to turn in after quitting a department. I had no specific love for .40s, but with the G22 I could shoot anything. It was really amazing at the level of unintentional accuracy I had with it.

    Next, I was issued a Glock 21 .45. Beast, I called it. Giant and heavy. The deep booms of the .45 and gigantic size were inspiring. I also found myself beating everyone in the department in qualifications, and as I undertook tactical training both professionally and amateurishly I found I could do anything with that G21. As time would have it, I needed to quit and move on with life. I'd finished college many years before and felt it was time for graduate school.

    To make the transition, however, I needed the security of a Glock 21 so I bought one, and I still have it today designated as my "nightstand gun."

    Many years passed, and I was all grown up, graduated, a working professional in slacks and these less than comfortable socks, and blessed with time to ponder. Technology, size, and cost made me think it was time to transition to 9mm when just 15 years earlier I scoffed at people who deemed 9mm a sufficient caliber pistol. I purchased a Glock 19 (9mm) and began to undertake the training that had been shelved for many years. I joined some ranges paying the annual fees and special fees to bump others out of the way so I could priority trigger time, took more courses, etc. The Glock 19 is now my primary defensive and, should the need arise, offensive pistol.

    About five years prior, I'd bought my wife a Glock 19 to do whatever she wanted with, and although finds it novel she isn't vested with the same interests in shooting.

    Finally, I've purchased a Glock 43 for my concealment purposes, and to date this is the coolest, most fun pistol I've ever owned. I absolutely love my G43. I just got this year's Glock Shooting Sports Foundation coupon in the mail, and I'm wondering whether to get another G43 or get something else entirely. I've often thought of getting a G26, but it would likely fall into a go bag never to see the light of day.

    I forgot to add a point to the story since I was replying between patients.

    I think the .40 used to carry a legitimate purpose when technology didn't "empower" the 9mm enough. Many believe, whether informed or not, that the larger .45 was a better round or that it was an easier platform to operate, and I saw a lot of regional law enforcement bodies transition from .40 to .45. I don't think a .40 will fall by the wayside anytime soon, but I think we'll see many, many organizations transition their personnel to 9mm, already happening locally and with some federal organizations, as we see increased ballistic technology.

    I'm shooting a 9mm round with better documented penetration and/or expansion than anything I've shot before. Generally, to each is own. Carry whatever you want. Just work on shot placement and follow up shots. What counts at the end of the day, is whether you hit your mark. Wound channel size is largely irrelevant and often can't be ascertained well when explored surgically. In a defensive situation, to stop your threat you have to reduce physical movement, which is much harder to do than one may anticipate, and to kill it you essentially have to destroy the nervous system or cause exsanguination. There are other more indirect ways to go about it, but these are the only that will happen quickly, and neither may happen fast enough to prevent rounds from returning your way. The only way to achieve any of these is through shot placement and penetration. The bullet, literally, has to reach its target.

    So what happened to 10mm, .45 GAP, .357 Sig. Anybody still shoot those? They're generally cost prohibitive to shoot frequently enough to yield high level proficiency.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2018
  30. urazmusbdragn2

    urazmusbdragn2 Tracker

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    If the newest generation of ammo for a 9mm makes it better, the ammo makers will use it in producing better more effective ammo for the 40 and 45 also. So what's not to like about that?

    A bigger heavier bullet is a bigger hammer, if you want to smash something hard use the best hammer available to you.

    High volume of fire doesn't win a 2 way shooting contest, hits do. Same goes for hunting.
     
  31. A K Church

    A K Church Guide

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    Back in the '70s, it seemed like 4-5 times a year some gunslick would publish an article declaring how superior .45 ACP is to 9mm. Or vice versa. Charles Askins made a living as a professional controversialist. I see this approach to gaining readers hasn't died.

    Kinda pointless, but people have to look.
     
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  32. plumberoy

    plumberoy Guide

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    [QUOTE

    There is more to the job than you have knowledge of.[/QUOTE]
    I have several good friends an relatives that are in law enforcement so I have some knowledge I also know most officers are not gun nuts
     
  33. Cachersquirrel

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    The differences in terminal ballistics between 9, 40, and 45 is in reality nothing. There is not enough differences between those calibers to matter. The "stopping power" and "one shot stop" terms and criteria from gun rags and a scientifically inaccurate method of data collection are obsolete dogma.

    If one knows how the body works, what it takes to shut it down, they will begin to understand how people can survive shots to the head with 45 ACP or 12.7 (DShK) or how they can absorb 12+ rounds in multiple calibers of 9mm, 38+P, .357 while still fighting. They will also understand how a single shot from a .22LR or 25ACP or 32ACP can cause someone to cease breathing after being struck by a single bullet.

    Pistol calibers suck, period. They don't have the third wounding factor that a rifle projectile has. In hunting, the hunter can fire a single shot and wait for the animal to go walk off, bleed out and lay down to expire. Hunters wait 30-60 minutes before tracking to accomplish this. Can't do that in a gunfight with someone trying to kill you. Therefore a high volume of fire with an intended high volume of hits as possible will be necessary until the threat stops. That high volume of fire is accomplished by shooting and continuing to shoot until the threat is done, period.
     
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  34. Cachersquirrel

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    I have several good friends an relatives that are in law enforcement so I have some knowledge I also know most officers are not gun nuts[/QUOTE]
    You are correct, most are not gun nuts. It doesn't mean they can't otherwise perform the job. There is much more to it, not just what you think it is by association.
     
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  35. blake g49

    blake g49 Scout

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    And here I thought I was alone - my hunting partner calls it a "significant stash"...
     
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  36. Tye

    Tye Scout

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    Kinda have to disagree with you on the cost being the issue. I spend a lot of time on the range with a lot of different body types. The 40 is a different round from the aspect it is a heavy high pressure round where the 9 is a light high pressure and the 45 is a heavy low pressure. The recoil is different it's a shooters round, beginners and most officer's who only go to the range when you make them have difficulties with it.

    Most that i have talked to who are changing back to the 9 is to have a round everyone can shoot well. If you said I had to carry ball ammo it's 45 all the way, but with the technology that is in projectiles now I'm of with 9 in a controlled expansion round. I carry both.

    I just ordered a conversion barrel to take my 40 to a 9(Glock 27). The 40 just isn't comforatable to shoot a lot due to me getting old and having arthritis in my wrist. Is the 40 a good round yes it is. Is a 22 a good round yes it's better than your fist if your life depends on it. JMHO
     
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  37. LongAgoLEO

    LongAgoLEO Scout

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    I feel less self-conscious now. LOL I suspect my "significant stash" will dwindle slowly since I don't think any of my well-worn firearms can handle a steady diet of these.
     
  38. Primordial

    Primordial MOA #40 Supporter

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    I still wouldn't want to be shot by a .40
     
  39. WILL

    WILL Scout

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    What they're finding with the newest generation of police ammo is that there is little real world performance difference between 9mm, 40 and 45. All of them stop/kill people equally as well. That, and officers qualification scores go up with the 9mm. Like you said, "High volume of fire doesn't win a 2 way shooting contest, hits do. " This is why the 9mm is resurging with LE/ FBI. Anyhow, I'm not here to argue, just passing along what I've heard talking with the folks in the know.

    Here's an article that may help...

    https://www.personaldefenseworld.com/2017/03/9mm-40-45-acp-stopping-power/


    Personally, I carry a .40 at work and a .45 CCW if I'm going into a dicey area. My regular CCW is a 9mm, but the round is so tiny compared to my .45 that it doesn't inspire confidence. So my gut gets what you're saying, but my brain knows otherwise.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2018
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  40. Fat Old Man

    Fat Old Man Perpetual Student Supporter

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    As a car guy, I like the analogy that the .40 is like a 400ci SBC, vs. the 9mm/350 SBC and the .45acp/454 BBC. for a driver, I'd rather have the bigger-inch small block than the heavier, less efficient big block. That's probably why I like the 300-I6 Ford as well. Its all about the stroke, not revvin! :dblthumb:
     
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  41. WalkingStick

    WalkingStick Tracker

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    Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one and they can often stink.
     
  42. Redbearcat7

    Redbearcat7 Scout

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    Finesse is an aquired virtue. Shillelagh or a club in hand. Shirt tucked in or left out kinda thing.

    Anyway, I carry 40 or 45 pistol, 44 special or mag revolver. 357 mag when hunting with rifles other than a 22.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2018 at 4:55 PM
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  43. scottman

    scottman Guide

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  44. Medic17

    Medic17 BCUSA Friend Bushcraft Friend Bushclass I

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    While I have no use for the 40S&W IF the authors point of view was valid in a minimalist sense...

    Auto loaders would be in 9mm
    Revolvers would be in 44 Magnum
    Rifles 6.5 Creedmoor or 338 Laupa
    Then you would have 22LR and a 12ga.

    I think with six calibers I covered every possible non military ballistic use.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2018 at 1:22 PM
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  45. Cwlongshot

    Cwlongshot Guide

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    Even trying to run down the middle of the road he runs himself over and contradicts himself...

    a 38 is 5 rounds and OK cause I handle it well... BUT 2-3 rounds less (With a more powerful caliber) when you have at least 13-15 on tap and its a negative.... Hog wash and BULL SKIT!

    Advances in technology... LOVE this one... are 9MM people so self centered to think ALL these advancements ONLY work for a 9MM????

    A 10mm has more recoil than all others mentioned... yet when HE chooses it for bear is recoil is tame and fast ability to get back on target...

    COME ON ERIC, it may have been dark when I was born, but it wasn't last night!

    Is anything said of the 25 ACP? how about the 32ACP... what about the 38 Super, 454 Cassull... 45 Grizzley... 475 Linebo... are these Dead?? Its like creating a argument then getting offended about said argument.

    Shoot what you like, enjoy it, its something to divide us we need things that bring us together...

    CW
     
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  46. Medic17

    Medic17 BCUSA Friend Bushcraft Friend Bushclass I

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    @Cwlongshot
    .25ACP
    If I am not mistaken the last pistol(s) produced in this caliber were Raven and Beretta?
    (Late 80's early 90's)
     
  47. Bax 40

    Bax 40 Supporter Supporter

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    My dept issues 40 cal Glock 22 and 23 for cid and we do just fine with them.

    Larry
     
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  48. TAHAWK

    TAHAWK Guide

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    Varmints at 100 yards? Creedmore?
     
  49. ManyHammers

    ManyHammers Supporter Supporter

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    I don’t own a .40 but I might want to one day,so no the .40 shouldn’t go away.
     
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  50. AnthemBassMan

    AnthemBassMan Scout

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    I carry my Walther PPS M2 9mm almost every day. Some days I grab my lowly SD40VE and carry that. And every so often, I'll grab my old Taurus 85 .38 Spl. My SD40VE is just as "snappy" as my .38 when its loaded with 158gr +P rounds. But I love them all.

    L8R,
    Matt
     
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