two down jackets, light and medium or one heavy jacket

Discussion in 'Winter Camping' started by mtwarden, Jan 21, 2015.

  1. t.darrah

    t.darrah Supporter Supporter

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    Layering is the only way to go for high octane adventures. For my headlamp start to my Thanksgiving morning trail run I started with three layers and finished with one layer. For reference it was 11* at start and 16* at finish 3.5 hours later.

    Not used this morning but one of my favorite layers is a Nano Puff Pullover.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2015
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  2. NewEnglander

    NewEnglander Tracker

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    Layers, is the way to go. IMHO...
     
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  3. Moondog55

    Moondog55 Guide

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    I've had a Mont-Bell Thermawrap XL for a while and I was having a whinge on a local forum about the tight cut in the shoulder and some-one offered to swap for a Patagonia Nanopuff pullover in XL, it so happens that while in New York last month I bought one of the new Nanopuff bivvy jumpers in XXL and the R1 hoodie in XXL
    So now I have to try and decide how to layer them all
    Do I leave the R1 for the really cold days and substitute the Nanopuff pullover instead?
    This was an out of the blue offer and I accepted without thinking it through
    The R1 hoodie is a superb garment but really far too warm for Australia most of the time. I was actually going to buy the R1 jumper but then thought that the attached balaclava style hood made sense as I'm always misplacing my warm hat
    Question is how warm is that combination of 2 Ultra light layers going to be and will layering over a Powerstretch top be effective if I have to bivvy unexpectedly
    I start my winter ski holiday on Monday July 4th having been planning it for 6 months, 3 months above the snow line coming up
     
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  4. mtwarden

    mtwarden roaming the Big Sky Supporter

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    I see the R1 as more of on the move garment (albeit on the move in cold conditions)- the gridded fleece does a good job of moving moisture- I'd want that layer close to my body- either on it's own or over a very light base layer

    with two nanopuffs you should have what is roughly equivalent to a DAS parka- two 60 gram garments equalling a 120 gram one- I'd want those on the outside as they block wind/light precip vs the R1 which does neither

    layer one nano over top if cold, layer both if really, really cold
     
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  5. Moondog55

    Moondog55 Guide

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    OK Thanx
    I have to wait and see if the nano pullover fits over the R1 top
    I had to get an XXL fleece to fit my shoulders and the Nanopuff sizing has been all over the place lately I think your answer means I'll also need [ possibly] an extra wind layer
     
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  6. mtwarden

    mtwarden roaming the Big Sky Supporter

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    possibly, but the nanopuff is pretty decently wind resistant (even has a pretty good dwr) if you're wearing it; if it's just the R1- then definitely a wind layer (if you're experiencing any wind)- the R1 has almost zero wind resistance
     
  7. Moondog55

    Moondog55 Guide

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    Your right there, but that really s it's good point
     
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  8. Moondog55

    Moondog55 Guide

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    Well 5 weeks in the "Death Zone" of 5C to -5C later and I can report that the combination of 2 nano-puffs is not as warm as a single DAS parka and the R1 hoodie is not much good in these temperatures. Under a windshell it is too warm and without it not warm at all.
    the 2 Nano puff layered [ I did a swap - my Mont-Bell Thermawrap for a Nano-Puff jumper in the old cut ] fit under the same sized DAS / level 7 PCU parka tho
    The Nanopuff handle the rain associated with these temperatures better than the R1
     
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  9. Moondog55

    Moondog55 Guide

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    Well our winter is finally over and some more information for you all
    I also had the Uniqlo UL down parka and that fitted over the Nanopuff jumper and under the Nanopuff bivvy and while it is a very flexible system it's also fussy and weighs the same as my heavier down parka and/or the DAS
    The big upside of using the two UL Patagonia garments is that they dry out much faster when they get wet than a single garment of the same warmth and the last few weeks of our winter have been very wet.
    So getting back to the original question I have to say
    "It depends"
    For moderate cold 2 LW but after it drops below -18C [ 0F] then a single big parka to wear when static is what I would do
     
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  10. Nuttysquirrel

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    Keep in mind a shell layer can add tons of warmth, if you vent right or don't stay active. With my patagonia down sweater and shell I've been comfy in the teens.
     
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  11. Moondog55

    Moondog55 Guide

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    Teens is no problem I agree, well depending on how you are moving.
    For temps at 0F and belaow I am thinking of getting a new down jumper, actually looking at a custom Skaha from Nunatack. Still layering but using a medium weight down over the Patagonia Nanobivvy, rather than a single heavier parka because it is more flexible.
    I'll be specifying the Skaha with 5 ounces of overfill tho, to get maximum loft and wind resistance
     
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  12. CharClothed

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    As a very thin man who get's cold VERY easy. I feel this is over kill considering how well wool works.
     
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  13. Moondog55

    Moondog55 Guide

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    While woollen clothing has some advantages; warmth for weight isn't one of them; a full winter layer system 3 to 4 inches thick made from woollen garments will weigh a heck of a lot more than a down or synthetic parka. Even with the overfill the Skaha will only be an inch and a half thick at most, just a little warmer than a Patagonia DAS parka and very few people think the DAS is overkill for the white season
     
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  14. mtwarden

    mtwarden roaming the Big Sky Supporter

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    when you quit moving in 0-ish degree (or below) weather and don a warm parka, you never think this overkill :4:
     
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  15. UAHiker

    UAHiker Supporter Supporter

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    I'm a layering guy myself. find it more versatile. just have to accommodate clothing to the activities your doing. are you active or not? obviously different clothing system if your generating your own heat or expecting the heat to come from clothes and fire.....
     
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  16. CharClothed

    CharClothed Supporter Supporter

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    I wear a parka too. But a poof jacket and a parka seems much.
     
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  17. Moondog55

    Moondog55 Guide

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    I think that very, very much depends on the expected temperatures.
    I like the idea that if things went belly up and the tent dissolved in flames I could survive with the clothes I have on my back.
    I'm taking my advice here from people that have spent a lot of time in sub-zero conditions such as mtwarden, friends who winter in Antarctica [ and who happen to teach cold weather survival] and the US army cold weather manual, and a warm parka over a down/synthetic puffy seems to be a standard procedure
     
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  18. mtwarden

    mtwarden roaming the Big Sky Supporter

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    the lighter insulating layer is often used on the move in cold weather, parka for stopping/rest/camp- in extreme conditions- both
     
  19. Moondog55

    Moondog55 Guide

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    Did we ever decide what was a heavy weight jacket or parka?/
    My Everest down parka has 650 grams of 650FP down in it for a total garment weight of just under 1200 grams and is what I would call reasonably heavy My surplus DAS clone weighs the same but is nowhere near as warm and I would call it a medium weight
     
  20. gargoyle

    gargoyle Scout

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    Puffer vest, oversized. Puffer jacket.
    The two when layered are extremely warm.
    These are the JCPenney Puffers that were on sale a few years ago. IIRC, $7 each, in the after season sale. Bargain!! So, I grabbed a few (6 :))
    JCP didn't offer a vest. But the sleeves are sewn on separately, so converting to a vest took a seam ripper and ten minutes (and some reading glasses) Removed sleeves can be slipped over feet while sleeping. Or a makeshift hat. Or slid onto my arms, converting the vest back to a jacket.

    The material in these jackets is flammable/meltable. Don't ask me how I know! :17:
    Treat with caution when near fire or heavy brush.
    They pack so small/light, and are so warm, that I always have one or both in the pack.
     
  21. Moondog55

    Moondog55 Guide

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    At $7- I would have emptied the whole display
    Pictures??
     
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  22. feellnfroggy

    feellnfroggy Guide

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    So Im late to this party, but anytime you can use layering youre better off.
     
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  23. Moondog55

    Moondog55 Guide

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    While normally I agree I think there are situations where a single very warm garment can be better than multiples layers where weight is concerned. I'm thinking here about very cold weather. When only moderately active you can be producing twice as much heat as when static so when you stop you then need that very warm layer.
    Also there are practical reasons because the shell layer will weigh the same for a parka and only the insulation weight changes. Given that the maximum practical insulation thickness is 2 inches on the arms and 4 inches on the torso and that when active a half inch may be enough, to get 4 inches of clothing that adds up to a lot of light layers.
    Having written that and thinking about my own cold weather wardrobe I realise I do not own an insulated vest capable of using as part of my own layering system [ several fleece and pile ones; however insulated ones are warmer for the weight] so a LW warm vest should be part of my own DIY plans for my upcoming trip
     
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  24. mtwarden

    mtwarden roaming the Big Sky Supporter

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    I have gotten good use of my "heavy" (it's not really that heavy) down parka for exactly what you stated- high activity (snowshoeing/skiing) in cold weather with relatively light layers and then stopped for a break- a single warm garment is just easier/more convenient and probably a little lighter

    but there are trips where I purposely bring two jackets- usually more moderate temps and sometimes longer trips where temps can vary quite a bit over time
     
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  25. feellnfroggy

    feellnfroggy Guide

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    I would agree with single layer, if your temps arent varying much. If the odds of removing a layer are slim, then i guess it doesnt matter does it? lol
     
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  26. CHREBA

    CHREBA Scout

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    I generally wear Under armour cold weather underwear with a heavy wool sweater . 5:11 tactical pants with a packable down sweater . When the wind starts howling I slip on my long - wide Wilderness innovations poncho .
     
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  27. CharClothed

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    Does adding a down jacket really help when you're in your bag? I've got a couple but never really tried it.
     
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  28. mtwarden

    mtwarden roaming the Big Sky Supporter

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    absolutely- I'll often carry a little lighter bag in the "summer" knowing that I can add my down jacket; in winter I'll carry a winter bag, but often temps plummet more than expected- the addition of a insulating jacket/parka makes a huge difference!
     
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  29. CharClothed

    CharClothed Supporter Supporter

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    So what I got are these two jackets. I assume they are down, both have the tags removed. The small one on the right is a tad bit small for me but it's thin and feels like down. It's from this preppy fashiony company called Zara. It's very thin for sure. The second is a Nike Sportsware. It's my everyday jacket during cold weather. Has what I assume is a cotton liner.
    Here's the closest thing I could find for Zara. I got these from the local college for free. Also there's a picture of a tag for the Nike. Found it online.
    https://www.zara.com/us/en/basic-quilted-down-jacket-p06518354.html?v1=4661101&v2=501501
     

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  30. mtwarden

    mtwarden roaming the Big Sky Supporter

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    can’t speak to the warmth or quality, but if you can layer one over the other- typically the outer jacket needs to be cut a little larger (to accommodate an additional layer) it will certainly be warmer than either jacket on its own.

    I would caution on the cotton liner- you absolutely do not want to get it damp- it will take forever and a day to dry
     
  31. ra2bach

    ra2bach Supporter Supporter

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    very much so. all you're doing is adding insulation - just like putting a jacket on over a sweater...

    the only caution is if your sleeping bag is tight, adding more bulk inside can compress the insulation for a null gain or even loss of overall warmth if it traps more moisture inside. draping your jacket (or a quilt) over the top works just as well if you can get it to stay...
     
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  32. aktatts

    aktatts Supporter Supporter

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    I’m all for layers but when it gets too -40 and colder nothing will beat my Canada goose parka unfortunately when it’s that cold bulky is the only way to go :)
     
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