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US army parka-liners question

Discussion in 'Clothing' started by Moondog55, Apr 13, 2017.

  1. Moondog55

    Moondog55 Guide

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    I'm hoping somebody can help me with a little technical data on these liners as my Google-Fu is failing me.
    I want to find out what the Clo value of the compressed 5 ounce polyester wadding is when sewed up into liners.
    I am working on my gear for a trip in a couple of years and my modified Fishtail parka will be my main garment and I am trying to make a decision about adding another layer of polyester to the whole liner or at least another extra layer over the core area.
    At the moment I have used an extra layer over the chest as I got a liner with a damaged sleeve cheap and simply cut the sleeves off and buttoned it in.
    This isn't working so well because the liners are the same size the insulation cannot loft completely.
    This is not a great problem because can always shape one to make it slightly smaller.
    I need to know the actual Clo value of the liner tho to determine if I need to add another layer of LW polyester between the two liner layers.
    Alternatively some advice on what weight of extra insulation I should buy and whether to ue APEX or Climasheild as the batting.
    At the moment my gut felling is that 2.5 ounce APEX would be just enough to be able to feel the difference without breaking the bank.
    Your thoughts and advice appreciated
     
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  2. bobs1415

    bobs1415 Supporter Supporter

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  3. Bitterroot Native

    Bitterroot Native Guide

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    I don't know any of the technical specs of the parka liner but I still have mine from my time in the US Army, one of the few random pieces of gear I ended up with. Think I even paid a ridiculous amount for it because I thought I had lost it.

    I wasn't overly impressed with it but added in as one of many layers in very cold conditions I could see its potential.

    Planning a trip years in advance, must be quite the expedition! :D
     
  4. Seeker

    Seeker Woods Bum Supporter Bushclass I

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    MoonDoggy,

    Don't know where you're going, but when I lived in NY, I did winter training with that parka and liner, along with the wool field pants and liner, mickeymouse boots, arctic mittens, and a knit hat. I was too toasty warm while snowshoing at -20F... If you're just standing around, it might not be enough.

    I still use that rig here in LA now that I'm old, cold, and creaky, and it still works, keeping me warm in the teens and single digits (4am deer stand, in January).
     
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  5. Moondog55

    Moondog55 Guide

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    I'm going to spend my inhertitance rather than save it and give it to my ungrateful kids, so planning a few years ahead.
    The relatively low thickness of the issue liner is why I'm thinking of adding extra between the torso layers
     
  6. Moondog55

    Moondog55 Guide

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    Seeker I'm hoping to get right above the Arctic Circle as part of the trip but definitely the Adirondacks again as well as Sudbury and finish off with some skiing at Banff
     
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  7. Seeker

    Seeker Woods Bum Supporter Bushclass I

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    Above the artic circle? yeah ok... I'd add a second layer.
     
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  8. Moondog55

    Moondog55 Guide

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    Mill Yardage have polartec Alpha on sale, a yard of that would do the torso area for $25- postage included
     
  9. Moondog55

    Moondog55 Guide

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    Just to confuse me even more a yard of Climasheild 3.5 oz would cost almost the same as would a yard of the lighter Thinsulate
     
  10. Moondog55

    Moondog55 Guide

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    I wish that I could make up my mind about the parka insulation question.

    If I don't use enough I'll need an extra layer of clothing like a vest but if I use to much I will find it too warm and won't want to wear it when I should. Such a simple question about a simple subject and I'm dithering about it like an old woman trying to decide on which candy to eat first.

    I also think I should sew in some inside chest pockets for somewhere to put a water bottle or spare liner gloves
     
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  11. Mangrove

    Mangrove Tracker

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    From article "Thermal Insulating Capabilities of Outdoor Clothing Materials" by Kaufman et al: "Insulating capabilities varied little among materials. Down provided somewhat higher value (mean, 1.22 clo/cm) than polyester (mean, 1.08 clo/cm)".
     
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  12. Moondog55

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    Which means in real terms the liner is about the same warmth as a standard weight woollen shirt or a Patagonia nano-puff jumper.
    Yes that makes sense, so the extra layer over the torso is about the same as putting on another winter weight T-shirt, so I'll use what amounts to a medium weight vest and use 100gsm or GREATER and pinch in the liner to make it fit
    That helps, a lot actually.
    Why did the miltary use so much quilting that the insulation value of the polyester was halved I wonder?
    At least they've learned and the new garments are much warmer

    EDIT
    So the real question now is between the 3 options and I do not know as much about the reaal world differences between them to make an informed choice.
    Cost wise there is little between them, Alpha breathes better but that is really not an issue here and W4W is thinner than either Climasheild APEX or Primaloft Gold, about the same as Thinsulate really.
    So Apex or Primaloft Gold? With the exchange rate it's only $10- difference in cost between any of them
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2017
  13. Moondog55

    Moondog55 Guide

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    Actually there was a 4th option, using stuff in my stash that I had thought was too thin and light.
    I'm using some thin Vilene which is so close to Thinsulate it makes no difference, only 4mm thick but adding that to the existing and taking into account all the stitching it should do

    Edited
    The Vilene is 4mm thick that does make a diiference
    I'll post pictures as soon as I can
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2017
  14. Moondog55

    Moondog55 Guide

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    Pictures soon, I'm using scraps of the old insulated liner to make the water bottle pockets, be big enough to take a couple of 600ml bottles on one side and the gloves etc on the other
    Having made this liner so warm I realise I may need to get another for when the weather isn't -55C and I think new spare liners in XL may be getting scarce. The Fishtail simply fits better when the liner is in and layers fit better because of the slip on the fine nylon
     
  15. Moondog55

    Moondog55 Guide

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  16. Moondog55

    Moondog55 Guide

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    Picture don't actually show very much.
    I'm not sure what exactly is happening here but the parka is now seriously warm and I've ordered another standard liner from Allegheny Outlets for when it's milder
    Inside pockets are deliberately bigger than needed, salvaged fabric from a Night Desert liner I had lying around in pieces
     

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  17. Moondog55

    Moondog55 Guide

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    After a lot of reading and paying a subscription to BPL I've found out that the Clo value of the liners is 0.8.
    So adding a vest layer will add 65% to that and the extra layer of thinsulate between the layers adds that same 65% again
    So the new value is 1.6Clo and the shell over the top adds 10%.
    I have also found out why the army specifies such a dense insulation for clothing, dense insulation suffers much less from wind compression than high lofting fill. Something I was aware of but hadn't thought of in this context.
    Thinking about this then Thinsulate Mid-loft is probably a better clothing insulation than APEX if you are headed for an area where the wind blows hard and constantly or if using down then lower lofting down and overstuffing.
    One other bit of information I have acquired is that the Inuit dress in far fewer layers in winter but that each layer is much warmer so I am rethinking my midlayer warmth
     
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