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Various .410 Chokes at Various Ranges

Discussion in 'Firearms' started by Polecat, Aug 12, 2017.

  1. Polecat

    Polecat Polecat in a Poke

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    Forked from this thread: https://bushcraftusa.com/forum/threads/chippa-22-410.203216/

    I did some experimentation this afternoon. Surprising results with the Mod choke at extreme range, and the IC choke at moderate range.

    The extreme range stuff was, as usual, all over the place and unreliable. But here's what I got, anyway. Lol.



    Edit: Same video as below, just added up here too so it's all in one place for a new reader.

    Update
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2017
  2. Polecat

    Polecat Polecat in a Poke

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    It may also be worth noting that these were factory loads.

    I wanted to empty the hulls to have more to reload, since you can't buy Winchester HS hulls any other way than to buy factory ammo. >_>

    The extra juice behind those 3" magnum loads tend to deform the shot a little more than the 2.5" loads, resulting in worse patterns. I like to reload them with hard plated shot, which helps keep the shot from deforming so much and tightens the patterns. Or such is the theory, anyway, lol.

    The plated shot is kinda expensive, but considering how little the .410 holds to begin with, the bag I have will probably last me years, lol.
     
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  3. swissarmy67

    swissarmy67 Scout

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    Excellent content as usual. :dblthumb:

    All I have is a full choke on my 410 Tamer. I have settled on 3" 7.5's (for rabbits) as they give the best pattern density for me at 25 yards.

    I do carry a few #4's with me in case I see a squirrel.
     
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  4. Birdman

    Birdman Guide

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    On older guns lengthening the forcing cone will give a much better pattern. Older guns, and some newer guns have a steep cone. If shooting modern shells, the steep cone is a detriment to shot patterns.
    I had a .410 topper that I extended the cone, then lopped off the barrel. It patterned about as well as a mod choke gun and had no choke at all.
    Another one I wish I had never sold.
    Anyway, something to keep in mind.
     
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  5. Polecat

    Polecat Polecat in a Poke

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    That may be what is going on with this Baikal. To be honest, I bought it for my collection and haven't shot it very much, other than switching it to ".410" and handing it to some young kids when we are shooting clays.

    I was a little surprised at how bad the patterns were out at 35yd, even with the full choke. With my other .410 (Chiappa Double Badger) I haven't been as "scientific" fooling with it, but it certainly smacks the hell out of squirrels in tree-tops. Moreso than I would expect from the patterns exhibited by the Baikal....

    Assuming that I don't have another Cattle Emergency tomorrow, maybe I'll have to print a couple more targets and try the Chiappa at those ranges, too, just to see how it compares. Since I forgot to bring my range marker boards back in, anyway. :D

    I should have worn a lab coat and a pocket protector (I already have the super-thick nerd glasses, so yanno). FOR SCIENCE! :D
     
  6. Wasp

    Wasp Supreme Knotter Supporter

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    Thanks for taking the time to do that!!

    On that shot with #6 ->6" high at the 6 min mark...I would like to have seen you aim straight on on a second shot just for reference.

    One of my all time favorite guages, but all I've ever owned it in was an H&R and a NEF. Want another one.
     
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  7. Birdman

    Birdman Guide

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  8. Polecat

    Polecat Polecat in a Poke

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    I will try to keep that in mind for tomorrow.
     
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  9. akbound

    akbound Guide

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    Polecat, I want to thank you as well! As I intend to become more involved with my own .410's, I find this particularly interesting. I'd also like to gather as many makes and types of .410 slugs as well and give them a good wringing out. It would be nice to have at least a reliable 50 yard gun for up to deer size game when out with the double badger; if it's responsibly doable!?!

    If not, it's easy enough to do with an appropriate handgun.
     
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  10. Polecat

    Polecat Polecat in a Poke

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    Yeah, I think the Brenneke .410 slugs are fine on deer.

    A lot of deer have been killed with .357s and even .45 caliber muzzle loaders. Those Brenneke slugs equal or exceed both.

    They are also constructed differently than regular foster slugs, or so I presume. The .410 slugs (other than the Brenneke) that I've tried seem to flatten out and spatter into little pieces, creating shallow wounds (in wet newspaper anyway, lol) without penetrating. But the Brenneke slugs seem to hold together and shoot through. I surmise that the penetration is what makes them work so much better, although they do seem to be loaded a little hotter too.

    Some people may disagree, but some people also think you need a .700 Nitro Express to reliably kill a bunny. So maybe I am biased to the opposite end of that spectrum, I dunno. Shot placement still counts, of course (and trumps most else within reason regardless of caliber, IMO). But they seem to work ok to me, within the relatively short effective range that plagues all slugs. I've killed a couple of does with them. Seem to work fine.
     
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  11. Polecat

    Polecat Polecat in a Poke

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  12. Squirrelhunter

    Squirrelhunter Tracker

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    Thanks for sharing that little test - always good to have more data to chew, particularly with these .410s :dblthumb:

    Plated shot does seem to offer better performance at longer ranges, even with smaller shot sizes like #6 or even #7.5; what I have seen 20 gauges do with Fiocchi's nickel/copper plated stuff is quite impressive indeed.

    Have you ever tried #5 shot in a .410? A number of folks seem to like it, something of a positive compromise between #4 and #6 shot. I have some of it in Golden Pheasant persuation, but haven't shot any yet. I have shot 3" .410 Remington Game Loads with #5 shot, and they seem to work well, at least at modest distances - haven't tried out to 25 yards or anything yet, but did down a squirrel with one shell :D
    Also, supposedly Winchester's AA .410 loads are quite good, with apparently harder than normal shot. I have some of these too, but haven't gotten around to shooting any yet. Here's a good practical test of some of them though: http://rockymountainbushcraft.blogspot.com/2017/01/review-winchester-super-sport-aa-25-410.html

    Speaking of Rocky Mountain Bushcraft, the fellow there has a good series of writeups on Chiappa's Double Badgers, among other guns, if anyone is interested: http://rockymountainbushcraft.blogspot.com/p/wilderness-gun-reviews.html
    He does a pretty good job, IMO, with his tests & reviews.

    Kind Regards,

    ~ SH ~
     
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  13. Polecat

    Polecat Polecat in a Poke

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    I use the Winchester HS (I think that's just the 3" version of the AA, but I may be crazy). I didn't know about the shot being harder, but the hulls are definitely thicker and can be reloaded several more times than most before they burn through. Which is nice, IMO, since .410 ammo is so darned expensive, lol.

    Never tried the #5. Thought about it, but then didn't. Maybe they didn't have any #5 plated in the store when I bought shot and primers... I can't remember now, lol. If I ever use up my bag of #6, I'll do that. :D
     
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  14. Polecat

    Polecat Polecat in a Poke

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    Better results with a different gun...

    Sorry about all the wind noise. :/

     
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  15. hunter63

    hunter63 Bushmaster

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    You know I have never given a thought to .410 chokes.
    So' I am finding this discussions interesting....
    Thanks for taking the time and effort.

    I do know the my old Crescent arms 410 isn't marked and won't shoot a 3" sounds funny are the hull doesn't open all the way....but no choke is marked.

    And of course the newer H&R and Rossi combos....are a whole other deal.
     
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  16. Fretful7

    Fretful7 III Supporter

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    Very interesting stuff @Polecat
    Thanks for putting this together !!
    I see you went ahead and picked up a 22/410 Baikal. I have not had much time with mine, but that may not be a bad thing from the results I'm seeing here :25:
     
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  17. Polecat

    Polecat Polecat in a Poke

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    I don't mean to be Safety Sally, nor do I mean to nag, but.... Aaa! Be careful. The 3" crimp can't open all the way in a 2.5" chamber, and it drastically increases chamber pressure. Might damage the gun, might not. But I wouldn't want it to blow up in my face, lol (or even squirt gas in the eye).

    I dunno how much it costs to have a chamber reamed to 3". I would think that the action could handle the pressure, if the crimp just had room to open.

    It's probably a full choke, if not marked. Most .410s were until fairly recently.

    Those Crescents are cool. I keep eyeballing a SxS 12ga in the FLIGS, but he won't come down on the price to what I will pay, even though it just keeps sitting there.

    I don't like it much. I mean, the machining and wood are a lot nicer than the Chiappa but.... Barrel selector where the safety usually is, might be dangerous if one is used to a tang safety on a double, imo. Might switch it to a live barrel and leave the safety off instead of turning the safety on. D: Poor sights. But the price was very right, and it completed my Baikal combo collection, lol.

    I dunno, maybe mine is just unusually garbage and that's why it didn't cost much, haha. I'd like to hear of yours once you get to shoot it a little. :D

    At the risk of spiraling too off-topic from .410s, my opinion is:

    Best .22/.410 combo - Double Badger (with some sight work).
    Best .22/20ga (or whatever bigger than .410) combo - Baikal Sever (good luck finding one now) or Double Badger (with some sight, trigger, and regulation work).
    Best centerfire combo - Valmet 412, by a very large margin (without any work other than sighting in). It's definitely worth saving a while and ponying up the cash to get one of these instead of the Baikal centerfire, imo, if you're at all serious about it. My only complaint is that they are hard to install a peep sight on (get the scope mount).

    It pains me to not have a better opinion of the Savage 24, but I just can't get onboard with the exposed hammer/selector/single-trigger anymore. :(
     
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  18. Fretful7

    Fretful7 III Supporter

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    I promise I'll let you know when I can. Wish I had some open range like you do - so lucky. Lol
    I'd really like to compare results of mine to your parameters - that would give us an idea if it was just your piece, or perhaps something more indicative of Baikal 22/410's in general
     
  19. 62flint

    62flint Scout

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  20. hunter63

    hunter63 Bushmaster

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    Yeah, figured that out 20 years ago,...LOL....
    I guess I should have explained that a little better,..... the reason It won't shoot 3" is because it is a 2 -1/2 chamber.

    But was good to have brought it up.... as I would guess there are a lot of old barn .410 out there ...and of course as we naturally go for the Biggest baddest we can find......we all buy 3'...because it's better....LOL
    Now reading this thread...makes one want to go a grab the .410 you haven't used since the ground hog under the wood pile.....and loader up.....touch it of.
    Be aware or what you are loading.
     
  21. scottman

    scottman Guide

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    Good load testing video with the two products interesting seeing the comparison in effectiveness !
     
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