What is the wait period for a custom knife? (Sargent Edged Tools Discussion)

Discussion in 'Edged Tools' started by Deji, Aug 3, 2019.

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  1. buckfynn

    buckfynn Old Geezer Lifetime Supporter Bushcraft Friend Bushclass I

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    Did you even look at the post @Deji made in the Bad Trades II Thread? He pretty much laid his cards out on the table of what happened from his perspective. It is up to @Sargent now to explain his side of the matter if he chooses to do so.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2019
  2. John from Alberta

    John from Alberta Supporter Supporter

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    A deposit for custom work is standard in just about every industry...pre-paying in full is definitely not. It blows my mind that any item could take 4 years to deliver, custom fabricated cars take less time. I've never bought a custom knife (and likely won't ever), but it seems to me like I'm seeing more stories of extremely long wait times from more than just this maker.

    My guess is that the only thing that will change the direction that this cottage industry is headed, is that customers stop capitulating to what feels like very non-standard terms of payment and delivery times. A free market is directed by the customers, so they're the only ones that can change it.
     
  3. John from Alberta

    John from Alberta Supporter Supporter

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    Just as an FYI, this is from the FTC website. I'm not 100% sure how it applies to custom work, or if it does at all, but by it's wording it certainly does not specifically exclude it.

    https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/business-center/guidance/selling-internet-prompt-delivery-rules

    Selling on the Internet: Prompt Delivery Rules

    TAGS:


    If you’re selling goods or services online, it pays to know the ground rules for making promises about shipments, notifying consumers about unexpected delays, and refunding consumers' money.

    [​IMG] View PDF (147.59 KB)
    The Internet is the fastest growing source of mail order sales. It's estimated that consumers spent $200 billion on Internet-based goods and services in 2008. The explosive growth in the goods and services sold online has in the past, taken many online sellers by surprise: demand has outpaced supply, depleting inventories and disappointing customers. The Federal Trade Commission is advising online merchants to review their obligations under the Mail or Telephone Order Merchandise Rule to better serve their customers.

    The Rule spells out the ground rules for making promises about shipments, notifying consumers about unexpected delays, and refunding consumers' money. Enforced by the FTC, the Mail or Telephone Order Rule applies to orders placed by phone, fax or the Internet. Your compliance can have bottom line benefits for your company - that is, satisfied customers are repeat customers.

    Complying With The Rule
    By law, you must have a reasonable basis for stating that a product can be shipped within a certain time. If your advertising doesn't clearly and prominently state the shipment period, you must have a reasonable basis for believing that you can ship within 30 days.

    If you can't ship within the promised time (or within 30 days if you made no promise), you must notify the customer of the delay, provide a revised shipment date and explain his right to cancel and get a full and prompt refund.

    For definite delays of up to 30 days, you may treat the customer's silence as agreeing to the delay. But for longer or indefinite delays - and second and subsequent delays - you must get the customer's written, electronic or verbal consent to the delay. If the customer doesn't give you his okay, you must promptly refund all the money the customer paid you without being asked by the customer.

    Finally, you have the right to cancel orders that you can't fill in a timely manner, but you must promptly notify the customer of your decision and make a prompt refund.

    Running Late? Overwhelmed with Orders?
    The Rule gives you several ways to deal with an unexpected demand.

    • You can change your shipment promises up to the point the consumer places the order, if you reasonably believe that you can ship by the new date. The updated information overrides previous promises and reduces your need to send delay notices. Be sure to tell your customer the new shipment date before you take the order.
    • You must provide a delay option notice if you can't ship within the originally promised time. The Rule lets you use a variety of ways to provide the notice, including e-mail, fax or phone. It's a good idea to keep a record of what your notice states, when you provide it, and the customer's response.
     
  4. manitoulinbound

    manitoulinbound Apple Fritter Lover Supporter

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    I've said it before in other threads and I'll say it here too. It's funny how there are NEVER any problems when taking someone's payment but then all of a sudden.......

    Not saying that's what happened here, I have no dog in this fight, I just hope it gets resolved for both parties involved.
     
  5. Calicoast

    Calicoast Supporter Supporter

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    Love reading all the differences in opinion.

    Keeping it real: if I paid what Deji paid, I would want to know where my knives are at?, and or where my money is?, and I think I have a right to know within a reasonable amount of time.

    Running a business is tough, I know from first hand experience(s). How one choses to run his or her business is based on many variables. How I choose to spend my money is based on many variables. But no one ever plays with my money or time, ever.

    Let the vendor explain his side, lord only knows the mistakes that I have made, and continue to improve upon. But in the end right is right, and wrong is wrong. Don't have the time anymore to blend the two.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2019
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  6. RiceOnSuede

    RiceOnSuede Scout

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    From what ive been told and read over the years, you ain't the the only one he took money from and never fullfilled the order. Its apparently a thing with him, either you get your knife or you get the run around for years. Sorry dude but i would give up and try to get your money back.
     
  7. M.Hatfield

    M.Hatfield Midnight Joker #42 Lifetime Supporter

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    I completely agree on this. The vendor in question does have to explain their side but there are very few answers which will sit well with me at all.
     
  8. buckfynn

    buckfynn Old Geezer Lifetime Supporter Bushcraft Friend Bushclass I

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    I am with holding all judgement, until I hear what Brian has to say. But indeed if this is a common practice of people paying him for a knife and never receiving it, why should he even be allowed to be a vendor here at BCUSA?
     
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  9. M.Hatfield

    M.Hatfield Midnight Joker #42 Lifetime Supporter

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    I am withholding judgement as well. I didn't even know Brian took orders. Maybe he did but no longer does? Not sure. :confused:
     
  10. MrFixIt

    MrFixIt Old Jarhead LB#42 Supporter Bushcraft Friend Bushclass I

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    Was last seen 21 minutes ago according to his profile...
     
  11. americanstrat98

    americanstrat98 Wanderer Supporter Bushcraft Friend

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    Amen, it is tough. I've made many mistakes as well over the years, but I'm learning.
     
  12. RiceOnSuede

    RiceOnSuede Scout

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    He did this to a friend and he never got his knife or his money if I remember right. I've also read about him doing this to severalothers over the years. Not sure of what kind of excuse he could give that you guys would accept. I find it downright disgraceful and I am almost positive people have been banned for complaining about getting ripped off by him.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2019
  13. operatord

    operatord Mora Tribe #574 Supporter

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    I still can’t figure out why the OP would keep sending money and items to him years after the initial payment was made and hadn’t received anything. I also can’t figure out why Brian has gone so silent since the initial Bad Trades thread was made.
     
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  14. T. Pollock

    T. Pollock T's Custom Outdoor Gear Vendor Supporter Bushcraft Friend Bushclass I

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    I sent Brian a PM to encourage a response/explanation. I normally do this to make sure the second party in a Bad Trade issue has the opportunity to respond. If one isn't made we'll go from there.
     
  15. kronin323

    kronin323 the barbarian Supporter

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    As one who has written a number of business contracts that then have to go through legal approval...

    This is not straight Time & Materials, which is billed at a hourly or daily rate over some regular time period (weekly, monthly).

    Instead, this is Fixed Price with very specific deliverables. A fair arrangement would have some portion paid upon signing of the contract and the balance paid once the deliverables are accepted. More complex arrangements may have milestone-based payments in between, but that shouldn't be necessary for a custom knife job.

    The strategy in the terms of a contract is to transfer risk and limit liability. If you can get the other party to accept terms where they own all the risk, that's ideal for you but worst case for the other party. And vice-versa. In a fair arrangement, both parties share some risk and share some investment in the contract's success.

    Obviously there's some variation on how formally custom makers may document their business arrangements, I doubt they're sending out formal, customized contracts to be signed and countersigned, but the lesson is still there. Don't go into an expensive deal where you accept all of the risk. A fair deal shares it. Down payment, balance upon completion.

    I mean, there's A LOT of makers out there. If the one you want won't give fair terms, is there really no other option?
     
  16. leghog

    leghog Guide

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    Seems like he has been selling knives over the 8.5 months I've been here. How can he not fill a prepaid order received 4 years ago? That will be hard to explain.
     
  17. freebirdfb

    freebirdfb Bushmaster

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    He closed his list around 2014. I'm at the bottom and he still hasn't gotten to me.
     
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  18. M.Hatfield

    M.Hatfield Midnight Joker #42 Lifetime Supporter

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    Thank you. That answers a BIG question I had. :)

    EDIT: I would add that a wait time like that is unacceptable. If I could help you or others in any way, I would
     
  19. RiceOnSuede

    RiceOnSuede Scout

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    5 years and still waiting?! That's insane!
     
  20. buckfynn

    buckfynn Old Geezer Lifetime Supporter Bushcraft Friend Bushclass I

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    Did you pay upfront for the knife that you ordered?
     
  21. Kona9

    Kona9 Supporter Supporter

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    Didn’t realize Brian had a list at one time. That would have been a couple of years before I joined here. Is this a side business for him or is he full time making knives? I always wondered but neglected to ask him. This discussion sheds some light on my only transaction with him. Let’s see if he replies.
     
  22. freebirdfb

    freebirdfb Bushmaster

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    No money was exchanged, only placed an order.
     
  23. Deji

    Deji Tracker

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    I did receive a message from the maker today and hopefully my order will be completed soon.

    Thanks @T.Pollock.
     
  24. buckfynn

    buckfynn Old Geezer Lifetime Supporter Bushcraft Friend Bushclass I

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    @Deji I hope everything works out right for you.
     
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  25. LogCabin

    LogCabin Guide

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    I am curious as to what @Sargent has to say.
     
  26. wallflash

    wallflash Supporter Supporter

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    A guy pays a custom knife maker and the maker takes his money , makes him wait years , and ignores questions from him .

    That has to be a first for this forum :p
     
  27. JeffG

    JeffG Guide

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    Me too.
     
  28. M.Hatfield

    M.Hatfield Midnight Joker #42 Lifetime Supporter

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    I agree. However, things like this are often best settled in private. For the sake of all people involved. :)
     
  29. JeffG

    JeffG Guide

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    Good point.
     
  30. geologist2

    geologist2 Supporter Supporter

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    I sent Brian a PM this past Friday afternoon that I would like my blade back. I have been waiting 1.5 years for him to rescale and make a sheath for one of his blades I sent him in January 2018. :33: I haven't heard back yet....
     
  31. Outdoor Dauber

    Outdoor Dauber Roughian #3 Supporter

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    I will agree with you...up to the point that the OP has been ignored / avoided. And if the seller is a vendor here (as in this case), others should be made aware of the issue and outcome. Not every detail, but whether he was refunded, received his knives, etc.
     
  32. geologist2

    geologist2 Supporter Supporter

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    @M.Hatfield normally I would agree about the in private thing but 4 days pass and seeing that the vendor has been on the site multiple times since then....I can only assume he is ignoring me on purpose. I have been told a handful of times that the knife would be finished soon and then 5 months go by and nothing.
     
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  33. M.Hatfield

    M.Hatfield Midnight Joker #42 Lifetime Supporter

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    Again, I completely agree. Privacy is best only when ALL parties benefit from it. Clearly this is not the case anymore.

    My only hope is that the best outcome for all involved. No matter how that happens. :)
     
  34. T. Pollock

    T. Pollock T's Custom Outdoor Gear Vendor Supporter Bushcraft Friend Bushclass I

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    Don't hold your breath guys, I spoke to Brian and apparently he has nothing to say publicly to address how he has done this member.
     
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  35. M.Hatfield

    M.Hatfield Midnight Joker #42 Lifetime Supporter

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    Members at this point it would seem. Thank you @T. Pollock for all the help you provide in instances like this. :)
     
  36. T. Pollock

    T. Pollock T's Custom Outdoor Gear Vendor Supporter Bushcraft Friend Bushclass I

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    Unfortunately it seems so brother. I know it's a hard thing to do but I really wish when members are legitimately done wrong in a trade that they would speak up sooner. It's becoming very clear that this is a normal pattern for Brian which IMHO is unacceptable.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2019
  37. manitoulinbound

    manitoulinbound Apple Fritter Lover Supporter

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    So he's being added to the do not deal with list in the bad trades thread?
     
  38. Simplejack

    Simplejack Hobbyist Hobbyist

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    Well id make a sheath in a day. Mr beck doesn't take money till he starts your order same with John at jk handmade knives. I'm gonna guess Mr gossman is the same way. You've been ripped off my friends
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2019
  39. T. Pollock

    T. Pollock T's Custom Outdoor Gear Vendor Supporter Bushcraft Friend Bushclass I

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    I try to be as patient as possible in these bad trade issues and see if there is any attempt made to make things right, offer of an apology, give an explanation, etc. The persons attitude and response (or lack thereof) once contacted says a lot about what kind of person they are. I'll leave it at that for now.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2019
  40. wallflash

    wallflash Supporter Supporter

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    Since this guy is a vendor , is there nothing that admin can do? I understand them not getting involved in sales/trades between private parties, but he is paying money to be given official space here , including the ability to moderate his own area and delete complaints about himself . If he is making a habit and pattern of scamming people here ( some of which seem to border on actual theft of property if people are sending him tools to work on he is refusing to return) , it looks like at the least his vendor rights could be withdrawn .
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2019
  41. Ptpalpha

    Ptpalpha Bushmaster

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    I don't have a horse in this race, but the comments inferring that previous reports of similar instances were deleted is troubling to me.
    Very troubling indeed, as a matter of fact.
    It's the honor and integrity of the membership that seperates BCUSA from the pack, not just fire and feathersticking.
    If such cover-ups have happened, I can only hope that it's ancient history and no longer going on.
    The continued existence of this thread would indicate that's the case.
     
  42. wallflash

    wallflash Supporter Supporter

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    Just my 2 cents to any of the affected parties, but here is what I would do in your case . Create a thread called “ Hey Sarge, where’s my knife ? I’ve paid for it “ in his vendor area, and screen shot it . When it gets deleted create one called the same thing with adding “ 2nd attempt “ onto the title . Then screenshot that one . When one gets deleted upload the screenshot to a post and send to admin with a note that vendor is refusing communication and has stolen your money and property . I would keep it up into 3rd, 4th, 10th, , 15th times until the matter got resolved . If it falls of the first page without being deleted I would created the “2nd attempt” one anyway, and the “3rd attempt” as that one fell off , so that there was always a thread on the first page of his area asking why he is ripping people off . And I would constantly be updating admin on the status of things , whether deletions by him or your thread falling off the first page because of being ignored .
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2019
  43. Kona9

    Kona9 Supporter Supporter

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    Really?!? I know if I was being accused of ripping someone off I’d want to defend my position or publicly apologize. Many knives have been made in the last few years. I guess I don’t get why these took so long. The requested knives are along the lines of Brian’s typical work. I know he sends out his blanks for HT, but that should be weeks to a couple of months to get returned. I wonder if there are others waiting for a knife that is paid in full?
     
  44. Mr. Tettnanger

    Mr. Tettnanger Supporter Supporter

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    I sure hope that the OP or the admins don’t delete this thread.

    Very important thread here folks.
     
  45. buckfynn

    buckfynn Old Geezer Lifetime Supporter Bushcraft Friend Bushclass I

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    For the vendor to attempt to sweep this under the rug and not publicly address the problems @Deji has had with him leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

    I am all for resolution, but I am also big on openness and transparency. So far it is lacking with the vendor in question.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2019
  46. Panzer

    Panzer Prepared Wanderer Supporter Bushclass I

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    Had a similar situation. :(
     
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  47. russw25

    russw25 Scout

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    No reply! What a shame. I guess we live and learn. I too think he should not be allowed to sell here as well.
     
  48. SmilinJoe

    SmilinJoe Supporter Supporter Bushcraft Friend

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    Was it resolved?
     
  49. Monkeynono

    Monkeynono Guide

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    This is not the 1st, 2nd, 3rd.........and so on time this has happened.
     
  50. SmilinJoe

    SmilinJoe Supporter Supporter Bushcraft Friend

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    Had no idea, this is the first I've heard of such issues. Was that why he closed his books? Got too far under? No excuse for keeping a customer who paid in full on the line for 5 years with apparently little to no follow ups.
     
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