Discussion in 'Firearms' started by Kimber22, Jul 9, 2017.
EDC, is a S&W M&P Shield 9mm. My bag gun is a secret.
Pdws rock in joe smoe containers bag guns laptop bags and regular backpacks
Most of the posts seem to be focusing on the "Reliability or preference over semi-auto vs revolver" so I'll touch on the question at hand.
There have been multiple reports during and after the Vietnam war that this exact problem was occurring. The number of bullets used dramatically increased with the introduction of the M16 platform, with roughly the same number of hits. This seems to lend conformation to your grandfathers opinion.
That said, I think semi-auto is the way to go and it revolves around training. If you train NOT to spray and pray, but to aim you will. I want to also point out that just because you have a semi-auto doesn't mean you have to aim less. Meaning take your carry gun, the XDS. Depending on the caliber you have just as any bullets to use as a revolver.
Carry what you are most comfortable with, familiar, capable of hitting your target.
If you can't hit your target, carry and shoot it comfortably, afford the practice then what good is it.
With an RMR equipped Glock, I can achieve 10/10 hits on a half size silhouette at 100 yards. Incidentally, the 1/2 size silhouette is about as big as the front of a coyote.
(Edit: I'm not bragging, I'm extolling the virtues of the modern handgun/optic platform over the limitations of old school irons.)
That's good shooting.....At the range right?
I would not try it myself....Nor would suggest it anyone else.
That course of action would come with whole lot more training and practice the 99% of the population has.
Keep in mind the OP was about revolver vs auto loader.....
The point missing so far from this thread is that the majority of police officers are not really into guns and shooting, and don't train as much or as good as they should. For that very reason, I think the opinion - no matter how much based on fact - of said police chief is not really relevant to your needs......unless you intend to do the same.
The "excess rounds" idea is pretty much debunked by now. I believe that if you go around thinking you have more than enough rounds to handle any situation, it's possible and maybe even probable that you will waste some - especially if you don't train well. But the first shot is the most important regardless of which you carry.
I began shooting, decades ago, with revolvers. I still like to shoot them from time to time, and it wasn't that long ago that I stopped carrying them entirely (more on that later). Autos have gotten so reliable and accurate that I no longer see a good reason not to use them for EDC - except in cases where large carnivores are the problem, and not so much now for that even.
There are personal reasons for choosing a revolver still, that are valid for the individual. If you won't or can't verify ammo compatibility for whatever reason, a revolver may be a better option. If you are unable or unwilling to train with the auto, a revolver may be better for you. I have a personal reason for avoiding revolvers these days. A hand injury has made operation of a revolver to be a slow process for me, while I can still manipulate and fire an auto pretty well with my injured hand. That brings up another advantage of the modern auto. Many models take less hand strength to fire than a DA revolver. That could be a life saving difference were your hand(s) injured in a fight.
I'm not changing a thing. It was actually just a thought I wanted to put out and get everyones perception.
Thank you. I started shooting with my grandfathers carry which ironically enough was an 8 shot .22 mag wheel gun that was built as a present for my grandfather when he was appointed. I progressed to a .38 police special and on to my father's .357 Colt Python. Now I shoot 3 gun with an XD-9. I have probably put close to 7-8 thousand rounds through it in practice and competition. I wouldn't trade that one for love nor money. I started my Mrs. on a Browning 1911-22. When she got used to that we progressed up to .38 rounds out of my Taurus. I put my XD in her hands and she doesn't shoot it as well as my 1911. These rounds are slightly loaded down but cycle. But she still prefers the 1911-22. She can shoot the wings off a fly with that.
I had to google around to find out That EDC means Every Day Carry. In my case one day can be quite unlike another. A lot of the time I'm around rural NM and AZ and see few if any people. Days like that I prefer my .357 S&W revolver because I can shoot it pretty accurately with a variety of ammo loads, depending on what needs shot. I may run into a rabid coyote or a rattlesnake or a car-struck cow and that accurate shooting revolver is the best thing to have. Other times I'm in a city or near one, and there will be many people, and possible interactions with them. And a tiny minority of those people can be real monsters. At those times I prefer my 1911 style .45 ACP with a couple of full mags handy. The semi auto allows for faster reloading which could be decisive if the threat is one or more armed human beings. The .45 ACP, even with reliably feeding ball ammo, has decisive performance against human targets. Which is more reliable, the revolver or the semi auto? I think that if I tossed the 1911 into a freezing cold mud puddle and kicked it around for a while, then did the same thing with the revolver, the 1911 would have a better chance of working. A revolver is a pretty delicate mechanism, with a lot of close tolerances that can be easily fouled and jammed in harsh conditions. The 1911 and most other modern semi autos are simpler and are closed up pretty tight so crud can't get in. But there is always the reality that semi autos can jam, especially if they get dirty. There's always the possibility of a magazine glitch that causes a jam. The revolver doesn't care what kind of ammo you are using. The semi auto can surprise you with it's picky taste in ammo. And a dud round in the chamber of a semi auto takes a lot more time, effort, and skill to deal with than a dud in a revolver. But it's very unlikely if you stick with new factory ammo. So there's plenty of things to think about either way you go. One more thing I'll say is that a lot of the women I know aren't willing to invest the time in learning to deal with semi autos and their various buttons and levers, and clearing jams, and how hard it can be to stuff rounds into their magazines. My wife, and the other women I know who have guns, prefer revolvers because they are so simple to operate.
As a bushcrafter, and not a Rambo-esque, G.I. Joe, or a professional gunfighter, it probably makes little difference what you carry. I have both wheelguns (main being a 4" .357 mag. 686-7 S&W, traded off my much-loved 6", pre-lock 586 for it) and a ugly and clunky, but, reliable Hi-Point .45, which wasn't always reliable- used to stovepipe ejects too frequently. That issue has been resolved, but, I still prefer the S&W, I shoot it better, I like the dual caliber capabilities of it, and it's just a beautiful handgun. The Hi-Point will never be pretty, but, it'd knock a man (or bear, reason for the purchase) on it's ass, if necessary, and has a slightly higher capacity---9 shots, as opposed to 7 in the Smith. I expect the Smith would do the same, just fewer holes in the pelt . As others have said, carry what you're comfortable with. More often than either of those, I'll have a pre-lock S&W model 17 .22 that I shoot quite well with strapped on, just for the fun of it.
Well I have read pretty much all that has been written in response to the question. A lot of good thoughts, advise, experiance, passed along. I like the concept of EDC to Woods Gun. Let's face it wheel guns generally are a more powerful platform although the 10mm is nipping at the heels of the 44 with hot hand loads.
EDC as it applies is what I carry to get home when things go bad. No we aren't talking about the Zombi Threat in that case find a long gun. The spray and pray argument is an old on as referred to in some of the above post all the way back to the civil war. Training is key but let's remember in training it's pretty much the perfect world meaning no one is shooting at you. If you have ever been shot at you know what I mean. Also who else are you responsible for can you have that great two handed grip or is one of your hands pushing your wife or kid out of harms way.
Statistically up to 6 shots can be fired in a violent encounter in about a second. The magic # is .25 it's not cheap but if you want to learn more about what your body does when things get dangerous attend a Force Science course. We do train better now so our kill rate is higher now that in previous conflicts. It is not natural to kill another human unless you have some serious issues. Can it be trained yes of cours but it is not natural. Most that talk about dropping someone like it's no big deal have never had to.
That being said train until it hurts until its part of who you are and hope you never need it but be glad you have it, regardless if it's a semi-auto or a wheel gun. The best gun to have in a gun fight is the one that works and still has ammo. But remember a well trained person who can control his emotions can kill you just as easy with a wheel gun as a guy with an auto.
And a bad shot might be aiming at your partner and hit you so ametuers can kill you to so what your six and carry everyday auto or wheel just train and be ready when if things go bad. But if you generally your head first you will probably avoid trouble. Humans are the only thing God made that will argue with its intuition.
You will never see a rabbit hopping across a field see a fox and say he doesn't want to eat me.
Assuming this is EDC in an urban setting, my vote is in favor of a semiauto pistol with a 10+ round capacity. I think the point is to be prepared to respond to a violent confrontation in such a way as to be able to either break contact, or if necessary to engage and neutralize the threat. The platform you choose needs to deliver a balance between what is practical to carry and still have the capacity to deliver against multiple threats. My training has been with semiautos, and the one with the most range time is my Glock 23. Most threat scenarios are now centered around multiple armed bad guys, and in my neck of the woods that would be 3 people, so the math on that is pretty simple, and it does not add up to 6. If on the other hand we're talking about woods carry, a revolver comes into its own as it can handle multiple tasks with a variety of loads that will not function reliably in a semiauto pistol.
A naa mini is as much supplement pistol as I often need with a semi auto . Don't have snakes really so no need for bird shot in a centerfire.
If I carried (haven't in a while now) a centerfire full size revolver I still would be carrying the naa mini for pests small game etc. squirrels woodchucks rabbits etc.
Naa is efficient for pests smal game and semi auto is efficient for threats be in two legged or four not much I don't feel confident tackling here with even a 9mm but a glock 20 with 10 mm and 9x25 dillon there isn't much in my current AO I need a centerfire revolver for.
I remember listening to a fancy nuts video in which he said in his gear checks he has yet to come across anyone carrying a revolver . I know people who carry revolvers as primary edc but what shows up to the club autos numbers rank a lot higher .
For a bag gun I could put a red hawk or gp100 in a laptop bag but it doesn't make sense to me in my area and my experience
I carried a double action revolver from 1987 until 1996. I taught them from 1992 until 1996. Revolvers do malfunction. The old saying was revolvers will handle neglect but autos will handle abuse. I still have a soft spot for double actions and wish I had a nice Python or an underlug Smith and Wesson #14. The big thing lost when training people with autos is you cannot use low power loads. The .38 wad cutter was a great training tool. Were I emporer, we would all star people on .22 for marksmanship.
I usually carry a small Sig Saur 9mm or a lightweight Colt Commander. I have carried and taught with Glock, Berreta and Heckler and Kock, but familiarity has often bred contempt. For this reason I do not own anything on the AR platform(If I did, it would be a 6.5 Grendel).
When in the boonies, I often carry a single action revolvers. When sharing a neighborhood with grizzly bears, I carry a LARGE caliber .475 Linbaugh. That is just a preference, an idiosyncrasy... one of many I have collected. I usually just carry a .45 Colt. I am currently practicing with single actions for that purpose.
I like shooting long range handgun. It is fun. People have been pinned down and used that skill in the past. Now everyone carries a carbine as they have become available. I had a coworker get shot in the ass with a .380 from about 150 yards from across the river in Mexico as he was scrambling up a hill. This would defiantly classify as bad luck.
I find it interesting that Pat McNamera's name popped up on this board. He is a great instructor and an interesting individual.
Seriously, I enjoy debates over firearms as well as the next fella, but, the same old arguments get old after awhile. Maybe because I instruct firearms/tactics in the military, but I always have a never ending stream of friends and family ask me, "What should I carry/use/shoot?" Anymore I like to say, "How the hell would I know?" lol. It really all comes down to the same thing. You carry, what you are proficient and comfortable with and basically what the situation is. I carry different weapons platforms for different scenarios. On my different deployments, I didn't clear buildings with a .50 cal BMG, I used an M-4. On the flip side, I didn't ride around in the turret on convoys, pointing my 9mm pistol, I used the .50 BMG. Different scenarios mean different tools. You don't pound nails with a saw. And the number one reason why your comfort is more important than a BIG CALIBER or high capacity mags, if you are using your carry weapon, because you have to, it's most likely a high stress situation, and your heart rate is waaay elevated, and the target you are shooting at, may be shooting back or charging you. Anyone can be an 'expert' shot on the gun range. Being an 'expert' in real life, means surviving. Just my .02. YMMV
I enjoy this topic and am asked this very question on a weekly basis. It's invaluable for us to clarify where their strengths and weaknesses are, and where our own strengths and weaknesses are when faced with life or death situations.
For the common question "should I get my grandmother a revolver or a semi-380" My answer is neither and instead either a taser, or pepper spray. Hand strength is the first thought when considering the two for a self defense situation. If there is no hand strength or dexterity, than often times its advised to limit their exposure to such situations, and or avoid attempting anything beyond hitting them with a purse or walking stick. I really don't advocate any person wielding a firearm that can be in turn used against them easily. I have however met some older women/men with considerable hand strength and sharp wits that could manage many platforms with relative comfort, and who are willing to take a life in order to defend themselves. Kudos to any person that's willing to stand against an attacker of themselves or others.
Semi-Autos- I carry this in an urban environment, and only if it has proven reliable through practice, drawing, mag changes, ect. If it in anyway causes discomfort in carry or shooting, then I won't carry it. If it cannot go through a few hundred rounds without failure then I consider it a backup, and or do not carry it until it can be brought back to life with proven reliability. If I change an ammo type then I will subject it's targeted gun to another series of range trips before I can feel safe with the pistol/mag/ammo combo. I make sure that the magazines that I have fore each pistol are 100% reliable before I ever consider carrying it for protection. Semi-Auto's can be extremely reliable, and the same extremely reliable semi-auto in the hands of someone that doesn't know how to feed it, oil it, carry it can be extremely unreliable. The saying YMMV really is the perfect way to put it.
Revolvers- Same as above, I test ammunition and inspect each one thoroughly to ensure reliability, point of impact, and ease of handling. I am fortunate enough to have handled a few dozen different models and can say that some revolvers without a doubt have an excellent handling ability such as the S&W Model of 1988, but revolvers are not nearly as universal as the semi-auto can be across the manufacturers. Each size/ calibre/ mechanism have their own specialty or quirk. To say a revolver is out of date is like saying that J.M. Browning's barrel lock-up design is out of date, lol. With practice, and diligence I feel just as safe defending myself at close distances with my revolvers or pistols, and will always feel that way so long as I practice with them. I'm sure when I'm too weak to hold one and pull the trigger, I'll hang them up. Till then its pew pew!
P.S. I am under no illusion that all wheel guns are more reliable than a modern $400+ semi-auto. For the sake of discussion I only applied my opinion to revolvers that are made by the original manufacture and are recently serviced, and in good working order. That limits this topic to double action pistols by Smith & Wesson, Ruger, Colt, Dan Wesson, and in no particular order. There are some exceptions, but they should be inspected carefully on an individual basis before hand.
The father in law wanted a gun to get into concealed carry and asked me what he should get. He is 6'5" with big ole banana mits so I told him to get something that fit his hands, which ment staying away from the small semi's. He has a small farm and his gun collection consists of old break open revolvers and single shot shotguns and .22s. Kept telling him to stick with a revolver as he is familiar with them and the learning curve is shorter.
He bought a s&w shield. Told him to get the .40 cal so I could keep him stocked in hollow points from work. He showed up at our house one day and the thumb on his left hand was all filleted open. Asked if he had been shooting his smith and he said yes. He has a tendency to place his left thumb over the top of his right hand and the slide bit him hard.
He doesn't shoot it enough to make good shooting habits under stressful situations. With his size he could conceal a .44 mag.
Probably totally irrelevant to the topic but I love to reload, been doing it for over 40 years so I like to recover all my brass as much as possible. I love my wheel guns because I get all my brass back. The only autoloaders I own both handguns and longarms are chambered in 22LR. I don't carry except in the field when and where the laws here allow.
Sounds like he needs some training and to nail down his systems and be CAC consistent across categories
Nice thread. I've been away for a while. Some folks like wheel guns and some folks like autoloaders. Kinda like Fords and Chevys. Over the years I have found myself owning and carrying autos more than wheelguns. For most instances I can carry enough rounds in the mag to negate carrying a reload.
When I was living in northern Virginia, I typically carried a Glock 20 or 29 in the woods or near my home (I did get Black Bears in my front yard). Around town I would either carry a Glock 27 or a 42. The Glock 42 in an IWB disappears under a t-shirt. Now some may scoff at a .380 but Speer Gold Dots will get around 10 inches of penetration. Enough for any social instance I may be in (notice the "I").
I've had a carry permit for over 20 years and and the two times I drew my weapon were for large dogs that were not known to me. Thankfully they just keep moving (My Jedi "This is not the meat you're looking for" worked). I think whatever you shoot best and are the most comfortable with is what you should use.
Now that I'm back in GA. Probably my .40 S&W or 9mm will be enough unless I get up north with the bears or south with the pigs.
Thanks for the thread.
Note: righty's shooting autos...right thumb over left. 1911's teach you that early on.
I have a glock 19 and 26. Typically I carry the 19, but if I'm going to something formal a convert my holster to tuckable and carry the 26. However, I went to a friend's wedding on Saturday and found that my 19 conceals just as well in a suit, so it looks like the 26 will continue to live in my get home bag.
These conversations always come across as the old 9mm vs .45 argument. It doesnt matter to me. HYOH. I have very few guns and invest my money in training and ammo to practice with. Id rather talk about tactics than gear.
This is one of those chicken or the egg discussions, one that will never get resolved, IMHO if you live in Chicago, DC, or near the Mexican border, move.
If you are intent on carrying a handgun for personal protection, carry what you can shoot well and have confidence in.
If you live in an environment where you will most likely encounter multiple aggressors whether animals or criminals, carry a high cap pistol.
For most civilized areas of the country the probability of getting into a use of force confrontation is almost non existent, universal crime reports point out that most civilian use of force incidents are between one aggressor and one defender, are usually over in less than a minute start to finish, with a total of three to five shots being fired between both shooters.
Personally I live in New England where the animals are friendly and people still get along with each other for the most part, I carried a gun for a living for allot of years before retiring and never had to fire a shot in the line of duty, during my career I carried revolvers and semi-autos and never felt under gunned with either.
Today, if I carry on the street it's a 15 ounce 5 shot S&W 642, in the woods it's usually a S&W model 60- 3" .357mag., I love my semi-autos at the range, but carrying around a 2-1/2 ~ 3 pound full sized pistol is a PITA and not really needed considering my AO.
I'll probably draw fire for this but I have allot of years as a FBI certified Police firearms instructor and trained police armorer behind me to back up my claims, while most semi-autos today are extremely reliable, the fact is that the smaller (more compact) the pistol the more unreliable it gets, main springs loose strength quicker, parts wear quicker, less fouling, lint, and dust is needed to get in the way of functioning, not so much with revolvers.
There are other reasons for some people choosing a revolver over a semi-auto, age and upper body strength for example, a senior that suffers from arthritis or a small framed woman with less upper body strength than a man may have allot of trouble working the slide on a semi-auto, where as a revolver is more of a point and shoot handgun.
When deciding to carry and which type and size handgun is better suited to the individual, the help of a qualified firearms instructor is invaluable, and make sure to take a course in the legalities of the use of deadly force as applies to self defense, what happens to you after you've pulled the trigger could scare you enough to change your mind about carrying a firearm to defend yourself, one thing is for sure, in criminal or civil court your opposing attorney will explain that the reason you carry a high cap pistol is to kill more people, the reason you had a trigger job done to your handgun or added after market grips was to make it easier for you to kill people, and the fact that your choice of handgun or the mods you did to it prove that you were actually looking for a situation to present itself for you to use the gun on somebody, this happens all the time when you are faced with an over zelous prosecutor or an experienced civil lawyer who is suing your ass off on contingency for a big reward on the other end.
Colter so what training have you been to?
Wait, this discussion has as much importance as anything else. In fact so does 9mm vs .45 for that matter.
As long as everyone acts like adults and no one feels everyone has to agree with their decision, it shouldn't be an issue, but it is important!
Why? Because what works for me in a particular scenario or purpose might work well for someone else, because there are people that are new and they like to know what's popular and why, because guns or anything for that matter is not a yes/no or on/off subject and needs to be discussed.
It's true, there are no right or wrong answers, but there are some that are more right than others. Do you use.22 for deer? Could you? The answer is absolutely, but you probably wouldn't unless you had too. Why not?
See, these subjects are not static and do in fact need discussing. There is no absolute reference for all firearms or training, so why wouldn't you discuss it, even over and over. Your opinion matters, and so does mine, but others will disagree with both of us and someone else will disagree with that. We can all learn from that....
I really like a thread like this one. It helps give insight into what people carry and why they choose the way they do.
Enjoy the handgun you choose and practice to become proficient with it.
This guy, a rifle and a bunch of friends with rifles!
Auto all day every day, with an auto as a backup if I can.
A) I'm more comfortable with them
B) I'm more accurate with them
C) they hold more bullets and pistol calibers are not "man stoppers" not even your grandpappy's .45 ACP
C is really the main reason for my choice, people typically do not stop with one round, the only way that happens is if you destroy the medulla oblongata, without doing that a person can continue to fight for quite awhile even with life ending trauma. More shots on targets ends a threat much more efficiently than less shots. In other words, 10 9mm rounds to the upper thoracic cavity will stop someone faster than 6 .357 to the upper thoracic cavity.
Another thing to consider, in urban areas and even some rural areas there have been incidents where mobs of people participate in the "knockout game" or mobs will harass and rob people on trains or busses and other enclosed areas. More people equals more shots needed to end the threat, an auto lends itself to that much more readily than a revolver does.
This statement has a lot of truth.
Its a training issue.
Patton stated the Garand "was the greatest battle implement ever devised."
Experts believe it gave the US a distinct advantage in WWII.
In a time where bolt action rifles were the norm the United States had the advantage with the semi auto M1 Garand. This was still a time where marksmanship was still expected and demanded.
Well, I have, but my experience is not germane to the OP, lol. I happened to be standing on the .50 that day,(so I had a distinct advantage over Mr. Hadji and his friends, ) while I had a FT on the ground with M-4's. The days I was on the ground, I never got to shoot.
You gotta love the fifty!
Well, I guess you can date me by the 45 Single Action I carry 90 percent of the time. I've been shooting them for 50 years.
I have pondered a .357 lever rifle and single action forever! I grew up being taught "ONE CALIBER" by my grandpa. He swore by it. And now that I am New Mexico it makes the urge stronger!
My EDC is a .38 Special Revolver snubby. (S&W 642) If I think I need something bigger, I go with my .357 Magnum Single Action revolver (Heritage)
My wife traded her Kel Tec 380 semi-auto for a Sig 380 semi-auto.
My co-worker carried a 70's rimfire derringer.
We each have our favorites.
My recommendation is to choose the sidearm that you like to shoot, so you will look forward to practicing with it. What handgun do you find the most comfortable and comforting to use?
In warm/hot weather I tend to pocket carry a Kimber Micro 9.
In cool/cold weather I carry either a GP100 (.357) or Redhawk (.44) as they conceal easier with heavier clothing.
Until I bought the Kimber, I considered getting an SP101.
due to a lousy experience with a tapped out m1911 in 1972 army training i became a revolver guy. i had to quickly decide on one handgun to quietly travel, secured deep in the bottom of my household effects, all over the world for many years. i chose a steel taurus model 85 38sp with 3 speedloaders, pachmayr grips and about 120 rounds of ball ammo. it was only shot after its journeys when i finally retired. i discretely checked it annually and (concealed) carried it only in haiti. it came out once with serious intent when some rioters mobbed our slowed car (never bring a rock to a gun fight). they all ran but i fully admit that relief was probably more due to the short ruger mini14 with banana clip that my associate stuck out the passenger window with a loudly uttered, impolite, social invitation.
fast forward. i dont edc the taurus anymore, its weight makes it a decent shooter but ungainly for edc. my edc depends on my mood, dress and destination. while i would love to edc a ruger blackhawk 45lc or 357/38/9mm, that i really enjoy and am proficient with, it wont happen in my present situation. so my edc choices boil down to an eclectic mix of either a naa guardian 32acp, s&w j-frame 642 (38sp wadcutters only), bond arms derringer, ruger lcr 22lr or taurus ply pt25. they all work well for me at the range and for edc. i probably should look at better holster choices.
if i could have only one edc now it would be an alloy lightweight 38sp snubbie, but with a hammer for both fast double- & aimed single-action fire, loaded with wadcutters or softest shooting swc loads. even though im fairly good with speedloaders i realize that 5 shots isnt super, but, at my age and where i choose/need to go, i should be ok.
Not meant to be an argument, just another perspective, one more in tune with the reality of the day.
Most areas of the country allow that civilians have a right to use deadly force to protect themselves and others from potentially fatal attacks by aggressors, but there are limits placed on the use of deadly force, and there are mitigating facts that determine whether or not that force is warranted.
One must also consider that the law may view ones actions as overkill, and facts entered into evidence will most likely sway the 12 people on the jury to take the same view as the police and prosecutors that have brought charges or to the Grand Jury who is charged with bringing forward an indictment or a no true bill.
Things that will have a negative effect on the use of deadly force are the type of weapon carried, whether or not it has been modified, how many and what type of ammo was used, a small revolver or single stack semi-auto holding under 10 rounds does not look as menacing as a large frame semi-auto holding 18 rounds.
According to FBI Crime reports, one ~ three shots are all that is needed to stop an attack, shooting an individual six times or more will need a really good reason to keep one out of prison for a long time.
Also, just the belief that ones life is in eminent danger is not enough, one has to prove that their life actually was in eminent danger and that there was no other action that could be taken other than killing someone.
Attacks by hoodlums in a public place, bus, train, or on the street that are meant to intimidate or frighten a victim or even being shoved around or punched is more often than not not reason enough to turn to the use of deadly force.
While I can agree that instances like have been mentioned of gangs of roaming youths playing "knock out games" should be viewed as life threatening and victims should be able to protect themselves in any way they can, if the attacker is not armed with and brandishing a dangerous weapon such as a knife, club, or gun, the use of deadly force comes into serious question, and firing a gun at multiple unarmed aggressors just because one is frightened or being harassed or intimidating is not a justifiable reason to kill as a matter of law.
A good thing to remember is that it doesn't matter how it looks to you that counts, it's how you look to the police, the prosecutors, and the jurist that will be judging you and your actions, in court it's not what's right or wrong that counts, it's what you can prove that's going to keep you out of prison.
The powers that be don't want people defending themselves, it sends a bad message to others in the community who might choose to do the same, so unless your are pure of heart and can prove it from the get go, the minute you pull that trigger you aren't going to be treated like a victim, you will be questioned, you will be detained, may even be arrested, you will be brought in front of a Grand Jury, you will have to get a lawyer, maybe have to use your home as collateral for bail money, if you are charged with negligent homicide and found innocent, you will have spent a fortune to defend yourself.
Once all of the above is settled, the family of the scumbag that you killed will sue you in civil court for everything you own or will ever own, and they don't have to prove that you didn't have to kill their son, father, brother or who ever beyond a shadow of a doubt, all they have to show is that there is a preponderance of guilt, or put another way, that you probably killed their relative because you were to scared or proud to run away.
Which ever way it goes, win or loose your cases, you loose in the end, and BTW, your post could be used against you in court, and don't for a minute think that it won't be found and used.
I'm a retired PO, I still carry occationally, and every time I do I pray that I'll never have to use it and face what I just detailed.
Frankly, this is BS. If this were so, the murder rate would be almost nil (though "attempted murder" would go through the roof...), and the graveyards would be a lot emptier. Most murders with firearms or self defense shootings are done with pistols, not rifles. Pistol bullets CAN "stop" with one round... and they do so ALL THE TIME. And the nonsense I often see about "A pistol is only good for fighting your way to your rifle" is also BS. Rifles are NOT the hammer of Thor. There are loads of people who have been shot with rifles and survived to tell the tale. Rifles give you range and perhaps accuracy... killing power? Probably not nearly as much as is popularly believed. Many times people will drop with one shot. Sometimes with surprisingly "weak" bullets like 22lr or .25acp. (One young man here was murdered by savages several years ago with one shot through a truck door with a .32 auto.) And sometimes they get filled full of lead (pistol or rifle) and the doc patches them up and sends them home. No guarantees... not even with a rifle.
Oh, and 10 9mm rounds will NOT kill (excuse me... "stop") anyone any faster than 6 .357's... Because the guy would probably already be dead after one or two...
No need to get home to your family or protect your wife and children, it's more important to worry about how scary your gun looks, how many rounds it holds, or takes to get you out of a dire situation.
When I started carrying I realized there could be consequences to my actions, but there may be greater consequences to my lack of any action.
In the end I carry what will get me home, try to only do what's right, and hope society isn't as big of a failure as it so often seems it is.
In the end I'll be judged by one, not twelve.
So carry a blank gun too ? Lol
Nope, that's not what I suggested at all, I'm sorry if you misunderstood my meaning, I was just pointing out the differences between perception and reality, and suggested what people might do to balance being safe while still protecting themselves from unnecessary litigation.
You're right of course, in the end you will be judged by one, but between then and now if you make the wrong choices and don't consider the inequities in the law those 12 people that you view as irrelevant now may make your way to the final judgement pretty damned complicated.
But the bottom line is, we all individually are the masters of our own fate, and that's as it should be.
Don't take your blessing for granted, you get one ride on this thing we call life, make the best of it.
I wish you and yours well.
I wheheartedly disagree with the idea that carrying a full frame semi-auto will as opposed to a wheel gun will look menacing or play to mindset in a trial. Full frame semi-autos are in regular circulation and they are what people tend to associate with police. If anything I would expect a jury to view a snubby .38 as a Saturday night special.
Also, if your primary concern is the trial after the shooting instead of surviving the shooting itself, I would argue that your priorities may be off.
I'm sorry but you're wrong. Yes, people frequently survive rifle rounds but even the tiniest amount of research will show you the massive difference in terminal effectiveness between rifles and pistols. The reason pistols kill more people is because they are used much more frequently.
I never said they were irrelevant, but they aren't going to be there when, and god forbid if I have to do what's necessary, or to stand between me and fate to protect me and mine. If you choose to do nothing or to little in a critical situation, a jury won't matter anyway.
Sure. I'm sure rifles can be more deadly. I did not say they weren't, just that they are not the magical killing machines that people often think they are. The point is there's this false notion out there that a pistol is merely a pop gun. A noisemaker meant to force your opponent to keep his head down while you rush to your rifle... your mighty Excalibur, and 30 pistol bullets (doesn't matter what type or caliber, since they all suck) would certainly be necessary to "stop" your adversary (hey, sometimes it is... and sometimes it isn't). If pistols were SO useless, no one would bother with them. They would just carry rifles around with them all the time (and hey, I wouldn't have a problem with that. )
As far as lawsuits and trials, I personally will not live in fear of loiyahs.
When someone asks a question like this, what it screams to me is, "Go get some professional training!"
Body armor noise makers and running shoes check check check .....
As a trained medical professional with 15+ years of combat pistol training (and grateful to have only needed to rely on my medical training), I respectfully disagree with your one shot one kill premise. Statistically all reported (emphasis on reported) handgun GSW is about 80% survivable if you have access to modern medical care (aka a trauma center), and have not taken a round to your central nervous system or your heart. Force on force training quickly teaches you how difficult it is to place a carefully aimed shot into vital nervous or vascular anatomy, while at the same moment fighting off your body's own physiological reaction to a violent life and death encounter. The circumstances of an armed confrontation may be random, but the outcome is very much dependent on your level of training and stress inoculation vs that of your adversary. In addition, during an armed confrontation it is not uncommon for an individual to carry on with the fight despite having suffered a mortal wound. There have also been many reported instances where individuals had no idea they were seriously injured until after the engagement. My 2 cents
My EDC is an HK USP Compact in 9mm. Very accurate, dependable and deadly. I use Federal HST hollowpoints. 9mm works well on the gang bangers downtown...
That's not what I read in @Stophel response. He said "it happens all the time" and even given your own statistics of 80% leaves 20% that don't.
I read his response as pistols are just as capable as rifles at stopping an agressor, even with one shot. Factors that determine that depend on a lot of things whichever you use.