Discussion in 'Firearms' started by Kimber22, Jul 9, 2017.
EDC, is a S&W M&P Shield 9mm. My bag gun is a secret.
Pdws rock in joe smoe containers bag guns laptop bags and regular backpacks
Most of the posts seem to be focusing on the "Reliability or preference over semi-auto vs revolver" so I'll touch on the question at hand.
There have been multiple reports during and after the Vietnam war that this exact problem was occurring. The number of bullets used dramatically increased with the introduction of the M16 platform, with roughly the same number of hits. This seems to lend conformation to your grandfathers opinion.
That said, I think semi-auto is the way to go and it revolves around training. If you train NOT to spray and pray, but to aim you will. I want to also point out that just because you have a semi-auto doesn't mean you have to aim less. Meaning take your carry gun, the XDS. Depending on the caliber you have just as any bullets to use as a revolver.
Carry what you are most comfortable with, familiar, capable of hitting your target.
If you can't hit your target, carry and shoot it comfortably, afford the practice then what good is it.
With an RMR equipped Glock, I can achieve 10/10 hits on a half size silhouette at 100 yards. Incidentally, the 1/2 size silhouette is about as big as the front of a coyote.
(Edit: I'm not bragging, I'm extolling the virtues of the modern handgun/optic platform over the limitations of old school irons.)
That's good shooting.....At the range right?
I would not try it myself....Nor would suggest it anyone else.
That course of action would come with whole lot more training and practice the 99% of the population has.
Keep in mind the OP was about revolver vs auto loader.....
The point missing so far from this thread is that the majority of police officers are not really into guns and shooting, and don't train as much or as good as they should. For that very reason, I think the opinion - no matter how much based on fact - of said police chief is not really relevant to your needs......unless you intend to do the same.
The "excess rounds" idea is pretty much debunked by now. I believe that if you go around thinking you have more than enough rounds to handle any situation, it's possible and maybe even probable that you will waste some - especially if you don't train well. But the first shot is the most important regardless of which you carry.
I began shooting, decades ago, with revolvers. I still like to shoot them from time to time, and it wasn't that long ago that I stopped carrying them entirely (more on that later). Autos have gotten so reliable and accurate that I no longer see a good reason not to use them for EDC - except in cases where large carnivores are the problem, and not so much now for that even.
There are personal reasons for choosing a revolver still, that are valid for the individual. If you won't or can't verify ammo compatibility for whatever reason, a revolver may be a better option. If you are unable or unwilling to train with the auto, a revolver may be better for you. I have a personal reason for avoiding revolvers these days. A hand injury has made operation of a revolver to be a slow process for me, while I can still manipulate and fire an auto pretty well with my injured hand. That brings up another advantage of the modern auto. Many models take less hand strength to fire than a DA revolver. That could be a life saving difference were your hand(s) injured in a fight.
I'm not changing a thing. It was actually just a thought I wanted to put out and get everyones perception.
Thank you. I started shooting with my grandfathers carry which ironically enough was an 8 shot .22 mag wheel gun that was built as a present for my grandfather when he was appointed. I progressed to a .38 police special and on to my father's .357 Colt Python. Now I shoot 3 gun with an XD-9. I have probably put close to 7-8 thousand rounds through it in practice and competition. I wouldn't trade that one for love nor money. I started my Mrs. on a Browning 1911-22. When she got used to that we progressed up to .38 rounds out of my Taurus. I put my XD in her hands and she doesn't shoot it as well as my 1911. These rounds are slightly loaded down but cycle. But she still prefers the 1911-22. She can shoot the wings off a fly with that.
I had to google around to find out That EDC means Every Day Carry. In my case one day can be quite unlike another. A lot of the time I'm around rural NM and AZ and see few if any people. Days like that I prefer my .357 S&W revolver because I can shoot it pretty accurately with a variety of ammo loads, depending on what needs shot. I may run into a rabid coyote or a rattlesnake or a car-struck cow and that accurate shooting revolver is the best thing to have. Other times I'm in a city or near one, and there will be many people, and possible interactions with them. And a tiny minority of those people can be real monsters. At those times I prefer my 1911 style .45 ACP with a couple of full mags handy. The semi auto allows for faster reloading which could be decisive if the threat is one or more armed human beings. The .45 ACP, even with reliably feeding ball ammo, has decisive performance against human targets. Which is more reliable, the revolver or the semi auto? I think that if I tossed the 1911 into a freezing cold mud puddle and kicked it around for a while, then did the same thing with the revolver, the 1911 would have a better chance of working. A revolver is a pretty delicate mechanism, with a lot of close tolerances that can be easily fouled and jammed in harsh conditions. The 1911 and most other modern semi autos are simpler and are closed up pretty tight so crud can't get in. But there is always the reality that semi autos can jam, especially if they get dirty. There's always the possibility of a magazine glitch that causes a jam. The revolver doesn't care what kind of ammo you are using. The semi auto can surprise you with it's picky taste in ammo. And a dud round in the chamber of a semi auto takes a lot more time, effort, and skill to deal with than a dud in a revolver. But it's very unlikely if you stick with new factory ammo. So there's plenty of things to think about either way you go. One more thing I'll say is that a lot of the women I know aren't willing to invest the time in learning to deal with semi autos and their various buttons and levers, and clearing jams, and how hard it can be to stuff rounds into their magazines. My wife, and the other women I know who have guns, prefer revolvers because they are so simple to operate.
As a bushcrafter, and not a Rambo-esque, G.I. Joe, or a professional gunfighter, it probably makes little difference what you carry. I have both wheelguns (main being a 4" .357 mag. 686-7 S&W, traded off my much-loved 6", pre-lock 586 for it) and a ugly and clunky, but, reliable Hi-Point .45, which wasn't always reliable- used to stovepipe ejects too frequently. That issue has been resolved, but, I still prefer the S&W, I shoot it better, I like the dual caliber capabilities of it, and it's just a beautiful handgun. The Hi-Point will never be pretty, but, it'd knock a man (or bear, reason for the purchase) on it's ass, if necessary, and has a slightly higher capacity---9 shots, as opposed to 7 in the Smith. I expect the Smith would do the same, just fewer holes in the pelt . As others have said, carry what you're comfortable with. More often than either of those, I'll have a pre-lock S&W model 17 .22 that I shoot quite well with strapped on, just for the fun of it.
Well I have read pretty much all that has been written in response to the question. A lot of good thoughts, advise, experiance, passed along. I like the concept of EDC to Woods Gun. Let's face it wheel guns generally are a more powerful platform although the 10mm is nipping at the heels of the 44 with hot hand loads.
EDC as it applies is what I carry to get home when things go bad. No we aren't talking about the Zombi Threat in that case find a long gun. The spray and pray argument is an old on as referred to in some of the above post all the way back to the civil war. Training is key but let's remember in training it's pretty much the perfect world meaning no one is shooting at you. If you have ever been shot at you know what I mean. Also who else are you responsible for can you have that great two handed grip or is one of your hands pushing your wife or kid out of harms way.
Statistically up to 6 shots can be fired in a violent encounter in about a second. The magic # is .25 it's not cheap but if you want to learn more about what your body does when things get dangerous attend a Force Science course. We do train better now so our kill rate is higher now that in previous conflicts. It is not natural to kill another human unless you have some serious issues. Can it be trained yes of cours but it is not natural. Most that talk about dropping someone like it's no big deal have never had to.
That being said train until it hurts until its part of who you are and hope you never need it but be glad you have it, regardless if it's a semi-auto or a wheel gun. The best gun to have in a gun fight is the one that works and still has ammo. But remember a well trained person who can control his emotions can kill you just as easy with a wheel gun as a guy with an auto.
And a bad shot might be aiming at your partner and hit you so ametuers can kill you to so what your six and carry everyday auto or wheel just train and be ready when if things go bad. But if you generally your head first you will probably avoid trouble. Humans are the only thing God made that will argue with its intuition.
You will never see a rabbit hopping across a field see a fox and say he doesn't want to eat me.
Assuming this is EDC in an urban setting, my vote is in favor of a semiauto pistol with a 10+ round capacity. I think the point is to be prepared to respond to a violent confrontation in such a way as to be able to either break contact, or if necessary to engage and neutralize the threat. The platform you choose needs to deliver a balance between what is practical to carry and still have the capacity to deliver against multiple threats. My training has been with semiautos, and the one with the most range time is my Glock 23. Most threat scenarios are now centered around multiple armed bad guys, and in my neck of the woods that would be 3 people, so the math on that is pretty simple, and it does not add up to 6. If on the other hand we're talking about woods carry, a revolver comes into its own as it can handle multiple tasks with a variety of loads that will not function reliably in a semiauto pistol.
A naa mini is as much supplement pistol as I often need with a semi auto . Don't have snakes really so no need for bird shot in a centerfire.
If I carried (haven't in a while now) a centerfire full size revolver I still would be carrying the naa mini for pests small game etc. squirrels woodchucks rabbits etc.
Naa is efficient for pests smal game and semi auto is efficient for threats be in two legged or four not much I don't feel confident tackling here with even a 9mm but a glock 20 with 10 mm and 9x25 dillon there isn't much in my current AO I need a centerfire revolver for.
I remember listening to a fancy nuts video in which he said in his gear checks he has yet to come across anyone carrying a revolver . I know people who carry revolvers as primary edc but what shows up to the club autos numbers rank a lot higher .
For a bag gun I could put a red hawk or gp100 in a laptop bag but it doesn't make sense to me in my area and my experience
I carried a double action revolver from 1987 until 1996. I taught them from 1992 until 1996. Revolvers do malfunction. The old saying was revolvers will handle neglect but autos will handle abuse. I still have a soft spot for double actions and wish I had a nice Python or an underlug Smith and Wesson #14. The big thing lost when training people with autos is you cannot use low power loads. The .38 wad cutter was a great training tool. Were I emporer, we would all star people on .22 for marksmanship.
I usually carry a small Sig Saur 9mm or a lightweight Colt Commander. I have carried and taught with Glock, Berreta and Heckler and Kock, but familiarity has often bred contempt. For this reason I do not own anything on the AR platform(If I did, it would be a 6.5 Grendel).
When in the boonies, I often carry a single action revolvers. When sharing a neighborhood with grizzly bears, I carry a LARGE caliber .475 Linbaugh. That is just a preference, an idiosyncrasy... one of many I have collected. I usually just carry a .45 Colt. I am currently practicing with single actions for that purpose.
I like shooting long range handgun. It is fun. People have been pinned down and used that skill in the past. Now everyone carries a carbine as they have become available. I had a coworker get shot in the ass with a .380 from about 150 yards from across the river in Mexico as he was scrambling up a hill. This would defiantly classify as bad luck.
I find it interesting that Pat McNamera's name popped up on this board. He is a great instructor and an interesting individual.
Seriously, I enjoy debates over firearms as well as the next fella, but, the same old arguments get old after awhile. Maybe because I instruct firearms/tactics in the military, but I always have a never ending stream of friends and family ask me, "What should I carry/use/shoot?" Anymore I like to say, "How the hell would I know?" lol. It really all comes down to the same thing. You carry, what you are proficient and comfortable with and basically what the situation is. I carry different weapons platforms for different scenarios. On my different deployments, I didn't clear buildings with a .50 cal BMG, I used an M-4. On the flip side, I didn't ride around in the turret on convoys, pointing my 9mm pistol, I used the .50 BMG. Different scenarios mean different tools. You don't pound nails with a saw. And the number one reason why your comfort is more important than a BIG CALIBER or high capacity mags, if you are using your carry weapon, because you have to, it's most likely a high stress situation, and your heart rate is waaay elevated, and the target you are shooting at, may be shooting back or charging you. Anyone can be an 'expert' shot on the gun range. Being an 'expert' in real life, means surviving. Just my .02. YMMV
I enjoy this topic and am asked this very question on a weekly basis. It's invaluable for us to clarify where their strengths and weaknesses are, and where our own strengths and weaknesses are when faced with life or death situations.
For the common question "should I get my grandmother a revolver or a semi-380" My answer is neither and instead either a taser, or pepper spray. Hand strength is the first thought when considering the two for a self defense situation. If there is no hand strength or dexterity, than often times its advised to limit their exposure to such situations, and or avoid attempting anything beyond hitting them with a purse or walking stick. I really don't advocate any person wielding a firearm that can be in turn used against them easily. I have however met some older women/men with considerable hand strength and sharp wits that could manage many platforms with relative comfort, and who are willing to take a life in order to defend themselves. Kudos to any person that's willing to stand against an attacker of themselves or others.
Semi-Autos- I carry this in an urban environment, and only if it has proven reliable through practice, drawing, mag changes, ect. If it in anyway causes discomfort in carry or shooting, then I won't carry it. If it cannot go through a few hundred rounds without failure then I consider it a backup, and or do not carry it until it can be brought back to life with proven reliability. If I change an ammo type then I will subject it's targeted gun to another series of range trips before I can feel safe with the pistol/mag/ammo combo. I make sure that the magazines that I have fore each pistol are 100% reliable before I ever consider carrying it for protection. Semi-Auto's can be extremely reliable, and the same extremely reliable semi-auto in the hands of someone that doesn't know how to feed it, oil it, carry it can be extremely unreliable. The saying YMMV really is the perfect way to put it.
Revolvers- Same as above, I test ammunition and inspect each one thoroughly to ensure reliability, point of impact, and ease of handling. I am fortunate enough to have handled a few dozen different models and can say that some revolvers without a doubt have an excellent handling ability such as the S&W Model of 1988, but revolvers are not nearly as universal as the semi-auto can be across the manufacturers. Each size/ calibre/ mechanism have their own specialty or quirk. To say a revolver is out of date is like saying that J.M. Browning's barrel lock-up design is out of date, lol. With practice, and diligence I feel just as safe defending myself at close distances with my revolvers or pistols, and will always feel that way so long as I practice with them. I'm sure when I'm too weak to hold one and pull the trigger, I'll hang them up. Till then its pew pew!
P.S. I am under no illusion that all wheel guns are more reliable than a modern $400+ semi-auto. For the sake of discussion I only applied my opinion to revolvers that are made by the original manufacture and are recently serviced, and in good working order. That limits this topic to double action pistols by Smith & Wesson, Ruger, Colt, Dan Wesson, and in no particular order. There are some exceptions, but they should be inspected carefully on an individual basis before hand.
The father in law wanted a gun to get into concealed carry and asked me what he should get. He is 6'5" with big ole banana mits so I told him to get something that fit his hands, which ment staying away from the small semi's. He has a small farm and his gun collection consists of old break open revolvers and single shot shotguns and .22s. Kept telling him to stick with a revolver as he is familiar with them and the learning curve is shorter.
He bought a s&w shield. Told him to get the .40 cal so I could keep him stocked in hollow points from work. He showed up at our house one day and the thumb on his left hand was all filleted open. Asked if he had been shooting his smith and he said yes. He has a tendency to place his left thumb over the top of his right hand and the slide bit him hard.
He doesn't shoot it enough to make good shooting habits under stressful situations. With his size he could conceal a .44 mag.
Probably totally irrelevant to the topic but I love to reload, been doing it for over 40 years so I like to recover all my brass as much as possible. I love my wheel guns because I get all my brass back. The only autoloaders I own both handguns and longarms are chambered in 22LR. I don't carry except in the field when and where the laws here allow.
Sounds like he needs some training and to nail down his systems and be CAC consistent across categories
Nice thread. I've been away for a while. Some folks like wheel guns and some folks like autoloaders. Kinda like Fords and Chevys. Over the years I have found myself owning and carrying autos more than wheelguns. For most instances I can carry enough rounds in the mag to negate carrying a reload.
When I was living in northern Virginia, I typically carried a Glock 20 or 29 in the woods or near my home (I did get Black Bears in my front yard). Around town I would either carry a Glock 27 or a 42. The Glock 42 in an IWB disappears under a t-shirt. Now some may scoff at a .380 but Speer Gold Dots will get around 10 inches of penetration. Enough for any social instance I may be in (notice the "I").
I've had a carry permit for over 20 years and and the two times I drew my weapon were for large dogs that were not known to me. Thankfully they just keep moving (My Jedi "This is not the meat you're looking for" worked). I think whatever you shoot best and are the most comfortable with is what you should use.
Now that I'm back in GA. Probably my .40 S&W or 9mm will be enough unless I get up north with the bears or south with the pigs.
Thanks for the thread.
Note: righty's shooting autos...right thumb over left. 1911's teach you that early on.
I have a glock 19 and 26. Typically I carry the 19, but if I'm going to something formal a convert my holster to tuckable and carry the 26. However, I went to a friend's wedding on Saturday and found that my 19 conceals just as well in a suit, so it looks like the 26 will continue to live in my get home bag.