Why not to use a hollow grind even for light batoning

Discussion in 'Edged Tools' started by cmgoat, Nov 10, 2018 at 8:19 PM.

  1. cmgoat

    cmgoat Tracker

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    KIMG0473.JPG
    Was splitting medium to small pieces of fat wood and found a knot...nuf said...
    Was the knife I had on me and love how it makes curls. Sorry no pics of those.

    Lesson learned.

    Carlos
     
  2. cmgoat

    cmgoat Tracker

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    Anyone have any advice on grinding without losing the heat treat?
     
  3. CoolBreeze135

    CoolBreeze135 Scholarly Woodsman Supporter

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    Do it slowly?
     
  4. Skeptiksks

    Skeptiksks Green Haired Weirdo Supporter Bushcraft Friend

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    That's a whole crap-ton of grinding. I would see what buck would be able to do for you first before taking it to the belts. There wont be a whole lot of blade left after grinding that out.
     
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  5. Outdoor Dauber

    Outdoor Dauber Scout

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    Put Buck's lifetime warranty to the test...
     
  6. x39

    x39 Hyperborean Supporter

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    Sounds like passing the "buck"... ;)
     
  7. cmgoat

    cmgoat Tracker

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    Thanks for the replies! Wasn't even thinking about the warranty. Guess I'll be looking up Buck's customer service.

    Thanks again!
     
  8. hillst1

    hillst1 Supporter Supporter

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    Buck will replace it.
     
  9. DarrylM

    DarrylM Supporter Supporter

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    Or, it's a perfect opportunity to put in a quarter round.
     
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  10. Skeptiksks

    Skeptiksks Green Haired Weirdo Supporter Bushcraft Friend

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    That is actually the perfect spot come to think of it. And buck doesnt make a WSK...
     
  11. highlander

    highlander Supporter Supporter

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    Haha! Put in a quarter round shape it up like a WSK and years from Buck collectors will go nuts trying to figure out what model it is.

    Send it back and try their warranty. I’ve heard they’ll do you right.
     
  12. JohnP

    JohnP No more half measures Supporter Bushcraft Friend

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    I hope you have better luck with them than I did. I was extremely disappointed to the point I will never own another Buck. That was several years ago, though. Maybe they’re doing better now. I wish you well.

    JohnP
     
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  13. arleigh

    arleigh Guide

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    Don't fix it.
    Now I has history .
     
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  14. Muleman77

    Muleman77 Hobbyist Hobbyist

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    I had the same knife ( Buck Vanguard) break the same size chunk out, although in a different way. Mine fell several feet and hit a rock.

    Buck replaced it no questions asked.
     
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  15. DomC

    DomC Retired Old Scrub Stomper Supporter

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    A hollow grind excels @ skinning/processing game. Buck knives are primarily used as such. Too bad they don't make knives with wood processing grinds.
    Dominick.........
     
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  16. Ragman

    Ragman Supporter Supporter

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    That knife is a goner.
     
  17. gohammergo

    gohammergo I like sharp things.... Supporter

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    They will send a new knife to you and probably give you a coupon for some percentage off of a new knife purchase too. Buck has excellent customer service. :)
     
  18. Gruntinhusaybah

    Gruntinhusaybah Hobbyist Hobbyist Supporter Bushclass I

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    I’d love to know what happened here.

    Buck Knives used to be in my home town, I picked up a busted up 119 at the swap meet for pennies, took it to the showroom and asked what they could do for me.
    They handed me a brand new one and told me if I managed to make it look like the last one, they’d replace it too.
     
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  19. mosinjoe

    mosinjoe Scout

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    Buck has a stamp where their knife is driven thru a nail. Pack it up and send it back and get you a new blade.
     
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  20. whtshdwwz

    whtshdwwz Supporter Supporter

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    Here comes Debbie Downer....look at the decision L.L. Bean made with respect to their lifetime guarantee, people abused it and now it is a memory....there are no free lunches and in the end we all pay for in some cases for poor decisions....I know the ESEE no questions asked re-buttal will follow and if you think about it honestly we pay up front for the warranty claims...next will come the that's what I pay for claim, which will add to why is everything made in China debate...which leads to the Walmart complaints...which takes me to my Grandfather's sage advice of using the right tool for the job...I never recall seeing any one of the Marbles knives he, my great uncles, my dad or uncles ever chipped out due to the "batoning" every knife now must survive to be useful...unless you are a true life or death situation get a small hand axe or mini hatchet that weighs less than a pound and call it a day...the same logic goes for those who come across a garage sale knife then expect a new factory replacement...we pay for that too....enough for 1 day my soap box needs to be put away so 1 day a year people can dwell on the true meaning of Veterans Day and I can enjoy a blooming onion with my son as we bust on each others branch of service.
     
  21. scottmm2012

    scottmm2012 Supporter Supporter Bushclass I

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    Same thing happened to a fixed Benchmade I received on one of my deployments to Afghanistan. Broke the blade in two, have never bought a Benchmade since.
     
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  22. JohnP

    JohnP No more half measures Supporter Bushcraft Friend

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    Ok, here it is. Many years ago my dad was a Buck dealer. We had Bucks all over the house. He would sell them to me at cost and he was very generous with them. One year he gave us a very nice set of butcher knives for Christmas. There were three of them in a nice wooden wall mounted holder. My wife used them a lot. One day she was using the biggest one and it snapped in two. She wasn’t batoning or even being rough. She is 5’1” and not a body builder. We weren’t happy, but by this time my dad had passed and we just stuck the broken one way and continued to use the other two. A couple years later, the second one snapped. These knives were in the kitchen, doing easy duty, and they broke like a cheap umbrella. I called Buck and they said to send all three back and they would happily send me a new set. And they did, but I would be embarrassed to even call what they sent butcher knives. They were very thin SS blades, plastic handles, made in Taiwan if I remember right. More like fillet knives. Really, really cheap fillet knives. The largest of the three was about the size of the middle sized original knife. Could most likely buy all three for about $20. I had a gorgeous set of made in America butcher knives that didn’t last well and were replaced with even crappier cheap foreign made ugly as all get-out fillet knives. I called them and told them there had been a mistake. They said no mistake had been made, those were their butcher knives now. They didn’t make the old style anymore. I hung up, walked into the kitchen and dropped the crap fillet knives in the trash. I also traded or gave away the rest of my Bucks. A Buck will not enter my house ever again. Ever.

    That is my personal experience with Buck knives and their Legendary Warranty.

    If it was mine, I would throw it away and go buy an ESEE or Ka-Bar.

    JohnP
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2018 at 8:57 AM
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  23. cmgoat

    cmgoat Tracker

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    Ouch! Can't say I blame you. That sucks.
     
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  24. cmgoat

    cmgoat Tracker

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    I think I like that idea lol!
     
  25. Muskett

    Muskett Scout

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    Every knife has some luck built in. You hope that luck lasts a long time and you get value for money from your tool purchase.
    Knives are made of steel and all steel comes with properties be it to be made soft or hard. But all will succumb to their limitations eventually. Use a blade on a job it wasn't designed for and something has to give.

    Knife manufacturers are business, and have a business model. That models may change over time, how the blades are made, the materials used, and where made, may well change to meet the market they are chasing. No one expects them to do the same stuff forever, they couldn't stay in business if they did. Last 30 years the knife world has progressed.
    Warranties form part of the business model. The more no quibble, the longer, the more that cost has to be passed on. And then people go and abuse the generous warranty.
    The market demands hard and not break. Well that can only be done with an iron rod.

    If you want something to be keen and cut its not going to have much metal behind the edge. Want a beater then there has to be lots of steel behind the edge. Want it tough then it needs tempering softer like a spring. Want the edge to be really hard then its going to be brittle. There are only so many things that can be done. Most manufacturers try to get the compromises right for the design and intended task. A hunting knife need to be hard to process a deer. A chopper softer to take massive punishment. If wrong or done badly the blade will fail.
    A good few manufacturers chasing the price do get it wrong or get a batch really wrong. A few years back Chinese were junk, but as they gain knowledge some are quite good. I personally trust some countries more to make a great knife than others. (Some fab Spydercos are made in Italy!) Brands change too and where they set themselves in the market. Do your research, and hope in your choice the makers did their part.
    But users have a responsibility too, and use the wrong tool for a job and its asking for trouble.
    Add all the reasons up then thats why I say every knife has some luck built in. The manufacturers reputation should give some indication, but how a consumer uses it, or abuses it, is the other part to the luck total. Use a blade correctly then most will give years of great service. Sometimes the luck just runs out.

    I don't need a crow bar in the kitchen. I hope the range and mix of cutting tools that I have will get all those different jobs done. I hope the luck of each tool holds out to at least getting my money's worth and with luck beyond. And then I'll probably go and lose it!
     
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  26. gdwigg

    gdwigg Scout

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    I’m not sure a chipped blade with a lifetime warranty is the same as a twenty year old flannel shirt that the elbows finally wore through.
    Maybe I’m crazy, but I’d be ashamed to even think about a claim on the shirt.
    Good luck with your knife.
     
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  27. Gruntinhusaybah

    Gruntinhusaybah Hobbyist Hobbyist Supporter Bushclass I

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    So what did you expect them to do? Did you expect them to send you knives they don't make anymore?
     
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  28. JohnP

    JohnP No more half measures Supporter Bushcraft Friend

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    Well, I certainly didn’t expect $200-300 knives to be replaced with $20 knives. Maybe that’s ok with you, but it isn’t with me. If a 60” plasma TV breaks and it isn’t made anymore, I wouldn’t expect it to be replaced with a 12” black and white. That’s close to what they did.

    Of course, they can’t send knives they don’t make, but monetary compensation of some sort would have been appreciated. Something of equal value. Concidering the quality of the originals I guess it’s just as well they didn’t replace them with those.

    JohnP
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2018 at 10:22 PM
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  29. americanstrat98

    americanstrat98 Wanderer Bushcraft Friend

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    Buck made a $200-300 butcher knife set at one point? That's very surprising. I was unaware that they ever made anything beyond skinning knives. Then again, I'm no history buff, and only have owned a 119, 105, 110, and a Vanguard. Never had an issue with them, but I only ever skinned game with them.
     
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  30. JohnP

    JohnP No more half measures Supporter Bushcraft Friend

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    Yep, they were very nice looking knives. We also had a set of eight steak knives in a nice wooden box. Got rid of them, too.

    JohnP
     
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  31. riokid87

    riokid87 Scout

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    I would expect a fix or replacement if it broke during normal use.
    Imo the vanguard is most excellent for what it is made for; field dressing game.
    If you were butchering a deer, slipped and hit a bone and it chipped out like that, ok.
    Batoning a hollow ground knife, not so much.
    Buck up (pun intended) and get an appropriate knife If you want to baton.
     
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  32. cmgoat

    cmgoat Tracker

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    @riokid87
    I have plenty of knives, was just too lazy to get up and get another one. I was posting to show why one should use the correct tool for the job. That being said, I was surprised the knife broke when it did. Which further illustrates my point.
    I have already decided not to take advantage of Buck's warranty for the reasons stated in your post.

    I'm fairly knew to batoning knives and I like to know what my equipment can and can't do. I have a Schrade SCHF9 that is, too quote others, a sharpened prybar. Great knife for the price if you want to beat on something.
    Any how, love this site and the people that are willing to share information and knowledge.

    Peace
     
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  33. JasonJ

    JasonJ Guide

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    Probably a good way to approach I things.

    Although... As I've said in the recent past, sometimes when pushing tools to the limit (to see what your equipment can and can't do), you actually find that limit.

    So long as you're ok potentially destroying said equipment to see what the "can't do" part is...go for it.

    I'd take it as a lesson learned and move on, sad as it is. Thanks for posting. I get why you did, as you said to demonstrate why not to use such a grind for that type of work.

    Might work 100 times... Until it doesn't.
     
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  34. Outdoor Dauber

    Outdoor Dauber Scout

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    I hope this means you're going to put the quarter round in it!! Show us pics when you get done....
     
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  35. Saddle Tramp

    Saddle Tramp Tracker

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    The vanguard is an awesome hunting knife, probably the best I've used. Likewise it excels at home butchery projects. However to get that good performance skinning and cutting meat, Buck grinds the blade super thin. Just hold it upside down at eye level with the tip pointing at you and you'll see just how thin the blade is behind the edge. It's frighteningly thin. It's a great knife that cuts like a laser, has great ergos, and classic styling, but it's not what I would call robust. I take mine on every hunting trip but I make sure to bring a heavier knife and/or a hatchet for the rougher work.

    Hollow grinds excel at cutting tasks, but, as you pointed out, aren't the best for batoning. That said, I don't hesitate to baton my Buck 124 and I've been know to baton one of my 119s. Both are hallow ground but it's a thicker more robust grind then on the vanguard.
     
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  36. Saddle Tramp

    Saddle Tramp Tracker

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    I believe John is referring to the Empress Trio pictured below. It was last featured in the 1981 catalog where dealer cost was $51 and suggested retail was $85. I'm not sure when John sent them into Buck but in today's dollars that's about $145 and $243 respectively.

    image.jpeg

    image.jpeg

    I would have been disappointed by the replacement knives as well, but I probably would have asked what they were going to replace them with before sending my knives in. They did replace your broken knives with serviceable knives from their current inventory which is about the best you can hope for from any manufacturer.
     

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  37. 45jack

    45jack Supporter Supporter

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    Pine knot can chip just about anything. the thinness of the grind just kind of makes it worse.
     
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  38. JohnP

    JohnP No more half measures Supporter Bushcraft Friend

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    Yep, that’s them. The two biggest broke. I suppose I should have ask what they were replacing them with, but at the time, this was when email was just starting up, I assumed they would replace them with something of equal value.

    JohnP
     
  39. Damian1690

    Damian1690 Tracker

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    That’s quite a bit to grind out. But what you do is get a cool cup of water and grind a little, feel how hot it is and dip it in the water if it’s getting too hot to touch for a few seconds. It won’t hurt anything. The key is to not let it get a few hundred degrees or that will ruin the temper. Just be careful around the tip as that will get the hottest the fastest.

    I’ve made knives and always have to grind them after heat treat and sometimes after tempering. Never ruined any of them. Just gotta be careful! Lol
     
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  40. Damian1690

    Damian1690 Tracker

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    Btw, Buck’s are usually treated at a higher Rockwell compared to, say, Gerber’s Strongarm which is meant to be really abused. But, I have a Buck Nighthawk with a hollow grind and it can take a beating!
     
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