Will bushcraft and "traditional" camping become illegal everywhere?

Discussion in 'General Bushcraft Discussion' started by Luke Dupont, Feb 6, 2019.

  1. TrespassersWilliam

    TrespassersWilliam Supporter Supporter

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    A free market capitalist might consider them to be "rent seekers".

    <<
    In some cases, of course, the entrepreneurs commonly labeled "robber barons" did indeed profit by exploiting American customers, but these were not market entrepreneurs. For example, Leland Stanford, a former governor and US senator from California, used his political connections to have the state pass laws prohibiting competition for his Central Pacific railroad, and he and his business partners profited from this monopoly scheme.
    >>

    https://mises.org/library/truth-about-robber-barons
    https://wiki.mises.org/wiki/Rent-seeking
     
  2. wallflash

    wallflash Supporter Supporter

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    Not always , no. It is possible to get rich without exploiting the people under you . When you have those that will force some poor schmuck who makes tee shirts to sell next years batch to them at 10 cents cheaper than last years so they can sell a million and make an extra 100K , or they will set someone else up in business that’s willing to take the order at the cheaper price, that’s a robber baron. When a multi billion dollar company treats its workers like virtual slaves so the billionaire came try to become a trillionaire, that’s a robber baron . When 500 million in the bank isn’t enough and you feel the need to cheat your employees of OT so you can claw your way to 600 million in the bank, that’s a robber baron .
     
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  3. GKiT

    GKiT Supporter Supporter

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    Nah, those are just people at decision level positions making decisions for the good of their business. If they make real bad decisions they loose and the people working for them loose too. People use the term too loosely. Good business decisions sometimes have negative effects on certain people and that’s fine.

    I am of the opinion that robber barrons do not exist under a free market that is unregulated by the government. Too bad we don’t have that. Govt. Regulation causes things to go wrong, otherwise things are sorted out just fine on their own. Sometimes that sorting out process can take some time and people can suffer in the mean time but that’s just the way it goes.
     
  4. goon

    goon Scout

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    I think growing up in mining country - seeing streams running red with pollution, grey wastelands where nothing grew, and abandoned D9’s, 992’s, and rock trucks leaking fluid and fuel everywhere - may have colored my point of view on what’s productive for whom. It was right next to towering hemlock and hardwood forests, and the contrast was obvious. The trick was to load up on all the money you could extract, then declare bankruptcy and leave the mess on your way out.

    As someone who understands that well managed land can provide a sustainable source of building material, game animals, and drinking water, I don’t much appreciate the robber baron approach to land management.
     
  5. wallflash

    wallflash Supporter Supporter

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    Sorry, no. Willingly choosing to abuse your employees , or others, or the environment, is not merely a good business . It is a choice to attempt to squeeze a few extra bucks of profit out at the expense of your employees and the rest of the world , and fits the definition of a robber baron. They do exist, and they would be even worse in an unregulated market . As always it is a balance . Those who wish for businesses to operate free from all regulation have no clue what they are really talking about or wishing for . At the same time too much regulation is stifling . It’s never an either/or thing . People used to routinely die from dangerous working conditions . Even today products from China kill pets because the Chinese try to find ways to make things cheaper and cheaper to sell to unsuspecting customers in the US . The belief that most businesses have the best interest of the customer or their employees at heart is naive . They exist to make money by any possible means they are legally allowed to, nothing more . Regulation is needed, but over regulation is bad .
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2019
  6. Tdr

    Tdr Scout

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    Most of my experience with private landowners has been with utility companies. The average guy driving a railroad spike in or fixing a washout doesn't give a crap about someone trespassing passively , and probably most guys at the head quarters don't either.
    It's when they get sued when someone drowns or falls out of a tree is when the no trespassing signs come out.
     
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  7. x39

    x39 Hyperborean Supporter

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    Spot on.
     
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  8. JoeJ

    JoeJ Supporter Supporter

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    To my way of thinking, it’s just plain wrong to circle a large track of BLM land and then post it, effectively limiting all others from accessing that BLM land. That’s what happened to our Wyoming hunt, so we no longer hunt in that State. Sure, there’s a lot more land to hunt but our choice was to take our money elsewhere.

    Who in the hell owns all the upland game birds? Where does all this farm & ranch subsidy funds come from? Who gets all these tax breaks and write offs and at what expense to the average working taxpayer?

    Not me is the usual answer but the average person thinks individuals living in the inner city are the largest group of welfare recipients, when in fact the agricultural community receives the lion’s share, depending on your definition of welfare.

    The percentage of slob sportsmen, outdoor enthusiasts etc is extremely small and my guess would be less than 2%. I have confronted “city folks” with a load of garbage like bed springs etc in the pickup bed on a tote road, as I know they mean to dump it in the woods, as I’ve cleaned up similar mess piles. All I know is they didn’t dump in that area and most probably went elsewhere. They are in no sense of the word an outdoorsman, hunter etc, but the tree huggers will blame the outdoorsman for their agenda.

    Speaking for myself and every outdoorsmen I know, we were taught at an early age not to pollute or leave garbage anywhere and that was always enforced with a cuff up alongside the head if you forgot. We, the hunter, fisherman or outdoorsmen haven’t changed - we have always been this way and we have passed it on to our children and they have passed it to theirs (our grandchildren). Yes there are slobs/arseholes out there and all one needs to do is step up to the plate when the time comes.

    Example - on a trip to one of the California parks we were at a location within the park where concessions were being sold with a large picnic seating area. Well there was a large teen youth group with only 2 adults overseeing their activities. There were several squirrels hunting for dropped goodies in the area - 3 kids lured a squirrel to their table and proceed to throw rather large rocks at the squirrel - my youngest daughter looked at me, then her husband, a couple other adult males and gave us about 5 seconds to make up our minds on what to do - well, as we were thinking about it, she yelled at them in a loud manner, got up and pointed her finger at them, walked over to their table and gave them a bit of advise that sounded like someone else - meaning me and my SIL were going to back up. The chaperones acted quickly to ascertain the problem and then proceeded to lay down some behavior rules. Everyone in that youth group stopped laughing and smiling and took heed when my little 5’4” 120 pound gal laid into them with that loud threatening voice and choice of words that would make any DI proud.

    She confronts sorry arses when the need arises - still laugh about the time she confronted 3 rather large ladies in a parking lot as 1 lady just discarded a plastic soda bottle on the ground not more than 20 from a trash barrel. She said, “excuse me ma’am, did you just drop something?” To which came a reply “and just who wants to know?” She just shook her head at that response, picked up the bottle and disposed of it properly, as the 3 women waddled down the parking lot.
     
  9. x39

    x39 Hyperborean Supporter

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    I guess there's something to be said for going to bed at a reasonable hour, LOL!
     
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  10. GKiT

    GKiT Supporter Supporter

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    Ha! You and me both. Makes you wonder what all we miss when someone ties one on over on the west coast.
     
  11. FIELDCRAFTLTC

    FIELDCRAFTLTC Supporter Supporter Bushclass I

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    From the OP, for me it is a matter of common sense. I believe there is room for both LNT and Bushcraft.
     
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  12. kronin323

    kronin323 the barbarian Supporter

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    What you should be wondering is, "did somebody do a screengrab before it got deleted?" :rolleyes:
     
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  13. Tor Helge

    Tor Helge Supporter Supporter Bushclass I

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    We have the "same" law in Norway. While the law is "new" (from the 60`s), the concept was worked out by the liberal nuts who lived here some thousand years ago, and has functioned fine ever since.
    Guess it is the same in Scotland.

    And no, I don`t think bushcrafting or camping will be illegal everywhere (at least not over here).
     
  14. slysir

    slysir Guide

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    I have to be very mindful of private property here. I'm always armed and trespassing on private property, posted or not, armed is a felony. Shooting into or across private property is also a felony.

    There's plenty of undeveloped land here to practice outdoor skills, but you just have to be mindful and respectful of others property. I see nothing wrong with that.

    -John
     
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  15. Beach Hiker

    Beach Hiker LB #42 Bushcraft Friend

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    @DixiePreparedness
    I love that strange film.
    Regarding tofu, it can be really gross.... or very tasty.
    I lived in Japan for a couple of years and they have some great ways to serve it.
    One of my favourites is a tofu "pocket" filled with sushi seasoned rice..... often eaten as a snack and widely available in convenience stores. Called inari sushi.
     
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  16. Luke Dupont

    Luke Dupont Tracker

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    I live in Japan currently, and agree 100%.
    Westerners just don't know how to use Tofu correctly :p
     
  17. x39

    x39 Hyperborean Supporter

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    I know of some ways to dispose of, er... I mean "use"... it correctly.... :4:
     
  18. DixiePreparedness

    DixiePreparedness Supporter Supporter Bushclass I

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    LOL
    Yes, I do know how to use it.
    You feed it tonyour livestock to make them gain weight.
     
  19. kronin323

    kronin323 the barbarian Supporter

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    I'm not quite sure what you mean by the reference.

    As famously quoted in the movie, soylent green is people. The movie's big reveal was that people were getting fed people. (Sorry if that spoils a 46 year old movie for anybody)

    So are you saying you're a soybean?

    Or that livestock feed should have people filler?
     
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  20. wallflash

    wallflash Supporter Supporter

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    The Scottish laws came into effect post 2000, and stem from a seemingly growing belief that private property ownership is wrong and that land should belong to the local community.


    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/c7c0e662-133a-11e4-8244-00144feabdc0




    https://shepwedd.com/knowledge/community-right-buy-abandoned-neglected-or-detrimental-land


    Whether this is similar in intent to what was enacted in Norway I do not know . I only addressed the Scottish laws coming into being , which don’t seem to have their roots in any ancient tradition but rather a more modern political one.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2019
  21. DixiePreparedness

    DixiePreparedness Supporter Supporter Bushclass I

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    Nah, I’m a butter bean. Or maybe a green bean. Perhaps Mr. Bean ??

    Okay. Now I am confused.
    LOL

    As I posted in another thread, nobody needs to fear here at BCUSA. Even in dire situations of starvation and deprivation, we probably wouldn’t eat anyone.

    I guess it was just soy soy joy rhyming in my head or something. Oh boy.

    Lemme consult Captain Codeine, since he has been running the cerebral machinery lately, and see if he knew what I meant.

    “Run Logan..... Run”.
    (Wonder if his ancestor was a Gump)
     
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  22. kronin323

    kronin323 the barbarian Supporter

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    Lol but I do understand your point; to me if it doesn't contain animal protein then it's a side dish...

    I do wonder about the prepper forum sometimes, though... :eek:
     
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  23. DixiePreparedness

    DixiePreparedness Supporter Supporter Bushclass I

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    There is a political term or classification for that “communal” ideology.
    And it’s not been a very successful way to run a railroad. (If you follow unrevised history)
     
  24. x39

    x39 Hyperborean Supporter

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    I thought we were all hubeans?
     
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  25. Jameson

    Jameson Scout

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    Interesting thread. Here in Minnesota, the (non-ag) private land must be posted to prevent trespassing. Basically, the land is considered public unless a person posts their land. Many landowners of the state don't understand that and have different expectations than what the law provides. With property comes responsibility.
     
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  26. tabasco_joe

    tabasco_joe Guide

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    In the east it's not so much about wildfires as it is about people chopping down every piece of burnable material within reach of the campsite. What some of these people try to burn is amazing. Some even chop down park signs and burn them.
    Fortunately in my state (PA) there is still a lot of state land where people can bushcraft and have wood fires.
     
  27. goon

    goon Scout

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    One thing I’ve thought about in the context of this conversation is Horace Kephart’s comment that “the man who goes afoot, prepared to camp anywhere and in any weather, is the most independent fellow on earth.”

    To practice this, you’d need somewhere to “go afoot” to.

    In some way, maybe the “right to roam” laws have a small point. There’s a guy who goes as “3 Mules” who wanders all over California on foot with a couple pack mules, and is constantly fighting some petty vagrancy or traffic charge - even though everyone on “his route” has to know who he is by now and that he’s just passing through with his mules. But he makes it a point to advocate for free travel, especially by pedestrians. As a natural creature, is there anything more fundamental than the right to walk somewhere and shelter yourself along the way? A coyote does this and it’s expected and natural, but if a man does it he is judge dangerous and deranged.

    Anyhow, I appreciate the discussion.
     
  28. GKiT

    GKiT Supporter Supporter

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    Kephart was great but if you are relying on others property along the way you are the most dependent fellow on earth. Now, if they don’t mind you passing through, that’s great but they sure should know about it and have the option to allow or decline your request.

    I would say the right to private property is more fundamental than the right to walk somewhere and shelter yourself along the way. But that’s just me.

    Be careful about wanting the freedom of the coyote, they might shoot you like a coyote.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2019
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  29. goon

    goon Scout

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    The frontiersmen and bushcraft guys of the past also had a much less populated area to wander around in. As things have become settled (which isn’t the same as civilized), both wildlife and the people who emulate it are bound to come into conflict with the settlement.

    The 3 mules guy often refers to old California law to support his right to travel. He’s virtually the only one traveling long distances like this now, but there was a time when many people did. They didn’t all sleep at inns. I don’t know exactly what they did, but there must have been a time when camping along a road was a norm.

    At some point we gave up the wildness and chose the “safe” path - or were forced to when everyone else did. Or we were born into it and only realized slowly that sitting at desks and making up for it with gym memberships is a sad imitation of what we were born able to do.

    I’m not arguing for or against anything per se - I like clean water, electricity, and antibiotics as much as the next guy. But there’s something missing, and that’s how many of us ended up here.
     
  30. DixiePreparedness

    DixiePreparedness Supporter Supporter Bushclass I

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    I can agree with that.
    I also believe that your “available wood” theory is more likely in desert areas than it would be on this side in the “woodlands”.

    But I see the problem further.
    People have no care for the signs “we” paid for and often helped put up, or for the “wildlands” that “we” use as our primary form of leisure activity. (I mean “we” as those of us who are true outdoorsmen)

    Likely as not, those who chop down signs and protected trees are city dwellers who hardly ever step off of paved surfaces, and regard the wildlands the same way they would a landfill or the ghetto.

    This is why I have decided to push for making stewardship of our wildlands be those of us who actually use it and know what is needed. Not by those who never have used or will use it.
     
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  31. LisaP

    LisaP Tinder Gatherer

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    Wanted to just chime in a little.
    I live in an area in the middle of national forest. Lots of people out here during recreation season. Weather varies, and some years it is clear as day to residents that you shouldn't blink hard enough to risk a spark, it's ridiculously dry. Visitors, though, don't see it. We've had years with major wildfires where you can walk through forest campgrounds on a Sunday morning after the RVs and campers have headed home and seeing smoldering pit after smoldering pit.
    This is not a highly populated or wealthy area. My county has 20,000 people and a median household income of $60,000 -- most of the people I know see much less than that. When fires start, our homes are the ones that burn, and we are the ones with the bug-out bags packed, we're the ones who can't get back home from work to get our pets out.
    People here are the last ones to ever, ever want to stop people from camping, building fires -- we love our forest. The people on this forum are not the ones who are causing us problems. The ones who cause the problems are the teenagers who head up to the mountains to buy our newest legal product and then get spooked when they hear noises, throw a little dirt on their fire and run off. Or the guy throwing his cigarette or dragging his chains along the highway on the way in. The idiots who drive out to the national forest so they can shoot at things that might blow up. For every person on this forum there are hundreds of guys that think they know what they are doing and then, oops, there goes the wildfire.
    Will a campfire ban stop that? No, it's just what desperate people do because they don't know what else to do. Higher fines, etc. for people screwing up don't work, because it is hard to catch someone in these cases, there's a lot of space out here -- and because these are people who don't think ahead anyway. None of the people that have burned down hundreds of homes and killed people wanted their campfire to do that, they just didn't see what might happen. So telling them they'll get a fine and go to prison won't work, either.
    It's just a hard nut to crack. I would say, though, that private land also is subject to bans -- and that we have a lot of trouble with private landowners, also, because people with no clue at all come out here and want to play Jeremiah Johnson. Everyone has a learning curve, mistakes are o.k., but I'm talking about people who have watched a lot of movies so think they know how to live wild. When people don't know what they don't know, it's hard to teach them.
     
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  32. LisaP

    LisaP Tinder Gatherer

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    He's probably afraid of being sued if someone gets hurt on his land. Some states have ways to take that burden off -- easements, etc. If you can find laws that say he is not liable if you walk on his land, he might be happy to let the locals continue using it as they've always done. Maybe.
     
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  33. goon

    goon Scout

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    A lot of the private landowners I know have problems during the summer with some illegal dumping, but they especially have problems in late November/ early December with idiot slob hunters.

    I grew up hunting, and many of the people posting here obviously hunt responsibly... but a great many people also do not. Do laws stop idiot hunters from trespassing, shooting past your house, or shooting your dairy cows? Nope. But like you say, it’s what people do when they don’t know what else to do. I do lament how difficult it is to tramp around in the woods and just be, but I also understand why landowners get fed up with people.
     
  34. kronin323

    kronin323 the barbarian Supporter

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    Anybody know someone who needs to do some illegal dumping, send them out to West Texas. There's plenty of space out there just begging to be landfill.
     
  35. LisaP

    LisaP Tinder Gatherer

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    I knew some people who moved out to an area where houses are on two to four acres, the deer came up into their yard and they sent their young kids out to shoot arrows at them, to get their first deer. They were going all Wilderness Family, but didn't know about tags or seasons or where you were or weren't allowed to hunt. They were shooting towards the neighbor's house, and as I understand it they were not toy bows. There are folks who move out here and practice shooting in the forest and when you say, "Do you have a good backstop?" they ask what a backstop is. One newcomer chased a bear down her driveway and shot at it -- with a shotgun. Seriously. I don't know what the answer is, law doesn't fix this.
     
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  36. Morrow7x

    Morrow7x Supporter Supporter

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    It's sad how accurate this has become. Colorado municipalities and gov't agencies tremble in fear at the thought of a strongly worded letter from the ACLU. Durango has allowed a possibly irreversible precedent to be set on surrounding public land, folks in the Boulder/Nederland area avoid once-popular recreation areas, mountain residents have given up asking the Sherriff's Dept for help with squatters because they know nothing will be done. Transients are free to pursue their bushcraft-meets-substance abuse lifestyle. And folks wonder why their numbers are growing...
     
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  37. Sleepswithbears

    Sleepswithbears Tracker

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    My thoughts on this thread.

    Speaking on fires and no campfires. I live in southern Idaho. In July to Sept even Oct fires aren't the best idea. Its extremely dry and even the most cautiously made fire could toss the spark to set the hills ablaze. During that time of year I follow the burn bans. even in my own green back yard. it is simply not worth the risk due to the dry pastures that surround me.

    Now on to something that gets me going. Ill try and keep it brief. Environmentalists who fight for no touching of the forests or keeping a natural forest. That way of thinking has made the fires worse. Instead of clearing dead standing and fallen trees they are left. So when a fire does happen it has way more fuel and burns way worse than if it was cleaned up even just a little bit to clear dead/ diseased/ or fallen trees would be a step in the right direction. I'd personally be fine with limited selective logging. Give the trees a better chance to grow with out being over crowded and in the end have a healthier forest.

    As for Leave No Trace. I think it can go to extremes very rapidly. Respect the land you hike on and camp on. Take your trash and keep public areas nice. The old saying leave it better than you found it is something I was raised by. I have had an experience where some M***** F***** left a bag of human feces at the campsite. I didn't realize it until my dog got into it and was covered. Who ever left that bag is the type of person that ruins it for all of us.
    I have seen the look but don't touch mentality as well. The woods are a museum and we are just stopping by. It was being taught to a group of cub scouts. The scout master didn't want them to even urinate in the woods. That is too much in my opinion. It sounds like he was the only established camp ground kind of guy. There is a good middle ground of being respectful and taking care of what we have.

    As for private property. I cannot talk much on since I am not a property owner and my state has lots of public land. However when companies or private owners purchase land that subsequently blocks access to public land I feel like that is not right. Access to that land should be maintained if possible. With possible compensation to the land owner. Now I can see the other side as well property owner saying I do not want a public road through my property. I get that. Its been said here before its not black and white.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2019
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  38. goon

    goon Scout

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    The idea that the forests or landscapes were totally pristine is also inaccurate - Native tribes often managed them to make better use for agriculture and hunting. They may well have made some mistakes - but they did use the land too. They also weren’t as able as we are today to completely poison it for generations, so there’s that.

    IIRC - “Changes in the Land” by Bruce Trigger is one work that examines this. There was also a tribe in South America called the Tiwanaku who figured out how to build sheltered gardens to grow food plants at high (cold) elevations. It’s kind of an arrogant idea to think that earlier peoples were not intelligent enough to better manage land to meet their needs.
     
  39. arleigh

    arleigh Guide

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    Please take the time to read the UN agenda 21,
    it is not a conspiracy it is intact and in action and get use to it.
     

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