LNT vs. Bushcraft


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redrob

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Do you think that Leave No Trace practices are at odds with Bushcraft? There are those who feel that one should not gather dead twigs, should pack out their, um, leavings, etc. I don't know if that is the mainstream view of LNT, but certainly they seem to be more gear-oriented and less making use of natural resources, the latter being what I think of when I think of bushcraft. Mind you, conserving natural resources is important (I think we all agree on that) and on well-used trails the environment is less tolerant of everybody cutting a few withies or gathering a little deadwood.

Another question I want to ask is what does LNT mean? Does it mean that someone coming on your campsite five minutes after you leave would have no idea you were ever there or does it mean that the environment has restored itself by the next season?

What do you think?

Thanks,
Rob
 
I use the LNT principles to an extent if im not on my property I clean up my fire pit and camp site so literally someone could come in right after me and probably couldn't tell I was there but that's about as far as it goes with that.
 
I'm not so sure that they are at odds. I guess the best comparison would be people who fly fish vs regular fishermen. There is just a certain air or elitism or such with the LNT hardliners. It seems that one crowd is into freeze dried meals, alcohol stoves, lightweight gear etc, while the other are more of the McManus types who prefer a "fine and pleasant misery" by carrying our fruit and food with water and fat ( bacon ) still in them and find it much more proper to operate in the old fashioned ways rather than trying to streamline the wilderness into something that it is not. Personally, the old ways are called the old ways for a reason, they not only work in most cases, but give the outdoorsman a door to the past, escape from the present, and a better outlook on the future. There is enough wilderness ( key word "Wild") for all of us to enjoy in our own way while mutually keep the land that we love wild, free, and clean of man made debris. I am a backwoodsman, i do what i need to have a good time in the woods wether that be packing an MRE or lookin for some furry critter or flipant fish to eat.
 
Leave no trace means that hopefully nobody will immediately be able to see that you camped there just by walking through. It all depends on the frequency that an area is visited. It's quite hard to truly "hurt" a forest doing anything bushcrafty, it's more about keeping it visually pristine for other users.
In more remote areas you might be breaking "principles" but you still (probably) won't be leaving a trace for the next person who comes through 5 growing seasons later.
Either way, so long as you only cut stuff well off trail, and clean up your fire, you should be okay so long as you aren't on the AT or something.
 
I'm with keri,

I think LNT sometimes misses the forest for the trees so to speak..
people get so wrapped up with things some times that there ideas or ideals own them instead of vice versa,

I keep a clean camp and I am mindfull of the resources I use, and am respectful of the environment.. I pack out my trash, and other trash I find..
i rarely if ever cut live timber,
i have no problem burning dead wood,
or leaving my spore.
dont use TP in the woods much anymore so thats rarely an issue
I tend to use fire pits used by others, and try to leave every site I use better than when I found it.
everynow and than I may leave a debris hut up, but I have no problem with this as It is
entirely made of dead matter from the surrounding area, and I hope if some kids stumble across it it might inspire them a bit

leave the woods as you would like to find it,
take only from it what you need
if everyone operated like that, we,d find neat fire pits from time to time, with neatly stacked modest piles of fire wood
without stumbling across
no broken glass, no empty propane tanks, dirty diapers or other nonsense

I have a friend who is an ultralighter, and a LNT guy I cam wit him from time to time, and I have to say our goals our different,
He's all about high light he can get his pack by using state of the art gear, and into how many miles he can cover in a day,
I'm into making my load lighter by means of skill acquisition, and am mor into what I kind find in a mile, than how soon I can get across it.
I will say Ilve learned some from him, and he has some wicked cool gear, but gear can fail..than what.
also having a campfire is just plain fun.
just my 2cents fwiw thanks for listening
 
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I think it should always be a case of leave no trace, take nothing, leave nothing.
When I was a SCUBA diver it was also a rule, take photos, leave bubbles.
 
LNT should be the modus operandi in heavily "hiked" areas. Where I live there are many popular trails in wilderness that are hiked by literally 1000's of people. If everyone gathered twigs for fires, it would look like a wasteland.

On the otherhand, when I hunt, I am bushwhacking. I often camp in areas that may see the presence of humans once or twice a year if ever. I try to use established fire rings but other than that, my camping has minimal impact on the area.

I think if us bushcrafters are going to "live off the land", it is our responsibility to get off the beaten path - literally.
 
I think of LNT as it being virtually impossible to tell you were there immediately afterward, or in some cases, better than it was before you got there (e.g. packing out trash, etc.), but long-term sustainability is more important, IMO.

I don't think that LNT and bushcraft are at odds if there are not more bushcrafters out in a particular place than that place can handle.

I think of LNT as a way to protect high-traffic trails and really fragile ecosystems.
 
Pack out your trash and do all else in moderation. It may offend some of the more extreme LNT types but...no skin off my back.
 
I think in some respects they are at odds, and in some ways, they go hand in hand. Though, I think the most extreme facets of LNT conflict with bushcraft. I'm not going to carry out my... stuff..., im going to build a fire (doesnt have to be big), im going to collect some plants along my hikes that are useful or edible, and im going to do a lot of bushcraftey stuff out in the woods in general. I think that extreme LNT people are a little naive, in that they dont realize that we can responsibly fit in as a part of the natural environment. We are not aliens to the natural world, we are part of it, and learning to use it and be a part of it again is what bushcraft is all about.
 
It seems like the LNT folks are the ones who move here, build a million dollar condo out in the middle of the woods (that had been a deer yard), slap a Sierra Club sticker on their SUV and then preach to the locals about not picking up dog poop or cutting a twig.....old John Muir himself made bonfires (!) to keep warm while camping during cold weather and hunted live animals in his younger days:54:

I think the average Bushcrafter is more sensitive to how nature works, why it works, than the average preacher of LNT.

if this is too rude, Mods please remove....
 
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I agree with BushBum,

Animals don't carry out there scat, properly buried and TP burned and dirt shoveled over who will know?
 
Leave No Trace and Bushcraft are not inherently at odds, but I think the two cultures often collide. There is a certain culture surrounding LNT in some cases that seems to take it to an extreme, and the same is true of some bushcrafters. In between there is plenty of room for compromise. Unfortunately, many people get caught up in the cultural "take only photos, leave only footprints" ethos and forget to take into account the big picture.

What has more impact, me using wooden stakes carved on site from a dead branch, or someone using Titanium stakes that involved everything from mining operations to processing and production in some overseas factory and shipping around the world? Likewise, as a bushcrafter, put your activities into perspective with the time and place. If you're in a high traffic natural area and thinking about cutting down 50 saplings to build a shelter, ask yourself what would happen if all of the thousands or millions of park visitors were doing that kind of stuff. There wouldn't be much of a park left, would there?

The whole point of LNT is to preserve natural and wilderness areas for future generations, and it's perfectly possible to practice bushcraft in a way that is consistent with that ethic. It just takes common sense and taking into account one's location/environment.
 
When I camp in the woods, especially at an obviously previously used campsite with a rock fire ring, etc. I will use the ring and add stones where needed.

I break up wood that is down and dead to use in my campfire and always leave a nice pile for the next guy.

I bury my scat which is a lot more that the four-legged critters do, and I pack out my trash and whatever other trash I find (usually a lot).

I leave a clean campsite but it's usually unclean when I return the next time.

As for leaving no trace; around here, nice wilderness campsites are used often by hunters and others. Everyone knows where they are and often go there. If I broke camp and scattered stones from a fire ring, they would just be back the next time I return... :34:
 
JDFeniello said:
I think in some respects they are at odds, and in some ways, they go hand in hand. Though, I think the most extreme facets of LNT conflict with bushcraft. I'm not going to carry out my... stuff..., im going to build a fire (doesnt have to be big), im going to collect some plants along my hikes that are useful or edible, and im going to do a lot of bushcraftey stuff out in the woods in general. I think that extreme LNT people are a little naive, in that they dont realize that we can responsibly fit in as a part of the natural environment. We are not aliens to the natural world, we are part of it, and learning to use it and be a part of it again is what bushcraft is all about.
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Well said, this is much like what I had started typing before I gave up and started over on my post :p

I think on the flip side of this, there are a lot of bushcrafters that see lump LNT practitioners into this giant 'hypocritical yuppie jerk' category and that's not fair (or accurate) either. Compromise requires both sides to be understanding and reaching for the middle.
 
It seems to me that there is a mixture of survivalist and bushcraft stuff going on here that confuses me at times. The LNT idea of 'leave only footprints, take only memories' works well for most bushcraft activities since using tents and tarps requires no destruction of trees and/or undergrowth.

The use of natural materials for shelter, bedding, etc. is very much at odds with the LNT philosophy and, to me, fits more with a survivalist approach to the outdoors. It is a good idea to understand how that works and to do it when and if necessary, but is something that cannot be practiced by most of us since we use public land.
 
I say they are interchangeable like Butter and Margarine; sure one is better than the other and too much of either and you get wicked sick but life would be super bland without them.
 
LNT to me is just good manners. I clean up after myself and always try to leave an "existing" camp better than I found it. If I'm in a low/no traffic pristine area, I try to leave little to no sign of my presence. I ignore the anal-retentive types. You know them. They're the LNTers that usually can't start a fire without a can of gas and a match. And then, maybe.
 
I'll start leaving no trace as soon as the beavers do.
 
chopchop said:
I think of LNT as a way to protect high-traffic trails and really fragile ecosystems.
Click to expand...

I'd agree. If you're truly in the backwoods, any responsible impact you make--even cutting down a few trees--would be negligible. If you're surviving in the wilderness, you've made yourself part of the ecosystem and have the same right to the resources as all the other animals. That's part of what confuses me about vegans who'll only forage...
 
my two cents:

Everything leaves a trace... pigs tear up my woods. raccoons eat at my feeders. deer and rabbits eat from people's gardens. i leave footprints, broken twigs, and a few stubs in overgrown thickets that let the sun in, allowing more plant growth... trees fall on other trees and break them. we all poop, even the fish.

Bushcraft, to me, is going to the woods and being comfortable and "at home", not afraid. It's about doing for yourself, with things you made, not 'gear'. It's about all the skills we practice for a time we'll need them. Knowledge, not fear. Living 'with' the land, not against it (leaving a trace).

I will continue to cut live, overcrowded thickets, standing deadwood, and anything else i please, WITHIN THE LAW. if a national park forbids cutting live trees, i will not cut them. Nature's Law also demands respect... this means leaving rare flora alone, being conservative in my use of fire (no bonfires for me, thank you... i consider them wasteful), and no killing squirrels and birds just to see if i can hit them... eat what you kill, use the skin and bones for a project. thank the Spirit for what you're receiving, whether that be animal, vegetable, or mineral.

But we needn't walk invisibly.
 
I'm sure other old coots like me will remember when Leave No Trace came out. I found one source that says 1994, but I remember it from when I was a scout in the 80's. The idea then was to clean up after yourself. I have always abided by that having been taught that way since I was a kid in the '70's.

...and no, 40's isn't (quite) coot territory, but like Chris said: it ain't the years, it's the miles.
 
In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is.
 
My version goes back to my dad in the 60s...leave our camp cleaner than when you arrived. It worked when I was a boy scout, then CAP, then when I didn't want a enemy to know I had been around. I've been at encampments that after 100+ campers left the only sign was the trampled grass, fire pits made in the ground had been re sodded.
Respect for the wild even worked when I mined gold and then silver. The gold was easy the dredge and stream refilled the hole. Silver: the mine waste was mixed with concrete and put back in the mine. What was piled up out side was replanted with local vegetation.
I think the key word is respect.
 
ive actually thought a lot about this, and i do think that the two are at odds with one another. bushcraft means living in the environment and make what you need out of it. it almost always implies altering that environment in one way or another, even just cutting a sapling to make a shelter. leave no trace means to bring what you need with you so that you dont need to take from the environment. personally, i think its important to keep both in mind when out in the woods. keep the skills alive, but preserve the places also. if everybody in the world was an avid bushcrafter, the impact on the environment would be pretty severe. if nobody was, then we would lose the skills that have been built up and perfected over generations
 
AMEN Grphyonblade! I can't remember what I did to feel like this most days, but this getting older stuff is for the birds!

Hijack over, as far as LNT goes, just clean up after yourself. The woods is for everybody, be courteous.
 
I pack out what I pack and try to leave the area better than I found it. Thats just me and I dont expect anyone else to do it nor do I look down on others for what they do. As long as you clean up your trash you are good with me. I dont lose sleep over fire pits either. With all the control burns around here is a little campfire pit really going to stress anyone?
 
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