P.O.G. -- Philosophy Of Gear


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CelticCross

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You know, in most endeavors, people are sort of categorized by their gear, or at least become known because of it. Bushcraft and camping are no different.

My Philosophy Of Gear is simple: Use what YOU like. I often see arguments along the lines of "Well, so-and-so used such-and-such and never had any problems", usually countered by "Yeah, but that was the best available at the time, they would have used this-and-that if they were doing it today." Guys arguing over gear. My question is: Who cares? If you are reenacting, you'll use what they did, or a facsimile of it. If you're not reenacting, use what you want. If it's what a historical figure used, great. If it's what the hot chick at REI said to use, fine. If it's a combination, fine.

Expensive vs inexpensive:
I some false dichotomies here. Sure, some things like Mora knives really are inexpensive. However, a lot of guys like to use surplus items (myself included). However, t hey aren't as inexpensive as we may think, we just pay a divided price. See, first it's paid for by taxpayers, most likely, including you, if it's from your country of origin. Then, you pay the purchase price. So add the original cost, to what you paid for it, and it's up their with a lot of new gear. You just don't feel it as much because the cost of the first round was shared by a lot of people.

Then there's the modifiers and do-it-yourselfers. It may seem as if you are getting by on the cheap, but you're not. Figure out the cost of making it. If you aren't self-employed, figure it by using your current pay. By that, I mean everything: your salary, plus the entire cost of your insurance coverage (not just your portion), your 410(k) match, etc. Spend a few hours doing modifications to your surplus bag or pouch, and you, say $10 buttpack or gas mask bag is now $100+; especially considering that, unless you do this professionally, you will take longer than a pro to do it.

Let me give an example: I'm in a serious bit of lust with a Duluth Pack Wanderer. Ok, some say it's overpriced at $225 (for the waxed canvas version). But look at it this way: billing myself or my time, te time it takes to measure, cut, dye and punch the leather, plus the time to wax, cut and sew the canvas (taking for granted I have the patterns they do, which speeds things up), rivet the leather to the canvas, etc. In the end it'd probably be a $500-$600 pack, assuming I didn't have to scrap any along the way.

It it worth doing? Right now, no. At my skill level I can't honestly even think of doing it. I may fart around modifying some surplus packs, like the E. German ones that go for 3 for $20. However, if I buy the Wanderer say, next month, I'll get many years of service and memories out of it before I ever have the skill to make my own. Furthermore, by the time I'm ready to make my own to my own specifications on how I want to do things, I'll have adapted my methods around the Wanderer, and will no longer have the need to build one to my spec. Will I do it in the future? Maybe. There is some value in doing things just to do them. But this is why I say, as much as I want to become a do-it-yourselfer, there's just some things I don't see myself as being able to do better than what is already out there.

But this falls right into the same thinking as the guys that can't see buying more expensive knives than a Mora, because a Mora is all they've ever needed. Why is that? Well, because they learned to do what they need to do with a Mora, so they know how to make the Mora do what they want! Other will say that now they have the experience to know what they do and don't want in a knife (extends to any piece of gear), so a custom is now a good idea. Which one is right? Both! because they both are using what they like.

Life's too short for you to go around pleasing everyone else. Most of us do not live a bushcraft life, so when we get a chance, we should go out to have fun and do what we like, not what others think we should do.

In a way, seeing the pictures of outings, and especially the get-togethers with everyone using a hodge-podge of gear makes me think more of the old Mountain Man days. Those guys really did assemble their gear from what they had available, and modified or made their own when nothing suited them.

Guys in wool, canvas and leather or guys with nylon titanium and freeze-dried pouches? There's room around the fire for everyone (except the polypro guys, you just smell too bad :p ).


ETA: If the above is rambling and unintelligible, please keep in mind that I'm typing it as I drool on myself from muscle relaxers, and stare longingly at my new axes I don't dare use. . .:15:
 
LOL nice post. I totally agree. I mix Molle with leather and antler all the time. Looks odd but it works.
 
Some valid points, but at least one false argument. :)

Those who modify and make their gear are often doing not just to save money , but as a hobby, an entertainment that they enjoy.

I can take the evening off, go to the movies and diner, blow 35-50 dollars and 3 -4 hours of my time for entertainment, and no one would expect me to "charge off" my hourly pay against that time- it was just for fun. ;)

If , instead, I buy $40 of materials, and set down to make a DIY project, and spend three or four evenings at it, I have at the end, entertained myself for many more hours for the same average cost. The time again, is not a cost- there is no "opportunity lost charge" involved- this is what I _wanted_ to do, instead of read, play golf, or work on the motorcycle.

I have had friends give me a bit of grief over the cost of a custom knife or a new gun, yet they play golf every weekend. The cost of their new clubs- and there are usually several- plus the cost of their greens fees, well they make my hunting and bushcrafting costs seem pretty reasonable, on an annualized basis.

?Just saying, not everything belongs under the cost accounting microscope. :)
 
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Well said.
I've modded a lot of gear in my time, used it, realized I'm no professional, realized there was lots to be desired with my mods and gone out and gladly paid for a quality item.
I'm not against modding or making my own gear, I do it a lot of times as a test run for the real thing. To see if I will like the concept.
You get what you pay for most times in my experience.
p.s. I agree. Use what you like. and Who cares what you use? Two statements I use often.
 
Some gear is unobtainable for some people, other than making it or modding it themselves. Case in point - my canoe poles. You just can't buy 'em around here (except maybe from me).

Other than that, I agree with ya, CC. :4:
 
Some valid points, but at least one false argument. :)

Those who modify and make their gear are often doing not just to save money , but as a hobby, an entertainment that they enjoy.

I can take the evening off, go to the movies and diner, blow 35-50 dollars and 3 -4 hours of my time for entertainment, and no one would expect me to "charge off" my hourly pay against that time- it was just for fun. ;)

If , instead, I buy $40 of materials, and set down to make a DIY project, and spend three or four evenings at it, I have at the end, entertained myself for many more hours for the same average cost. The time again, is not a cost- there is no "opportunity lost charge" involved- this is what I _wanted_ to do, instead of read, play golf, or work on the motorcycle.

Economically speaking, my argument is sound, as there is always opportunity cost. In your example, there are several things you could do other than the DIY project, or going to the movies. You chose one of the opportunities, the opportunity cost is the other things you didn't do. When you buy something you pay a monetary cost (you decide you want to own a product more than you want to own pieces of paper with ink on them), and the opportunity cost of the other things that money could have bought.

When you make or modify something, you pay the opportunity cost for what you could have done, a monetary cost for the materials needed, and the labor cost for your work. Whether or not you enjoy yourself is irrelevant to the fact that there is still a cost. You simply determine that the enjoyment derived is well in excess of the costs involved. You have to make that determination.

The exceptions are at either end of the spectrum. The guy with lots of money but very little free time is all but forced to buy anything he wants because he hasn't got the time to make it if he wanted to. The other end is occupied by the guy with very little money, but plenty of time and labor to "spend" on the project, who is all but forced to make what he wants.

I don't mean to make everything sound like a job, but I think it's important to understand these concepts. Here's why:
I often see people complain about the cost of items. "Yeah I know it's a custom knife, but how does he get off charging that much for it?" Well, go make it yourself. Make it with the perfect fit and finish that is always demanded. Make the sheath you would demand come with your custom knife. Now, do the cost analysis. You find that the materials and electricity involved is minor compared to the labor cost. When you come up with your final cost, you'll find that paying the pro to do it, even paying the necessary American (or Canadian, or Swedish -- i.e. first world) wages, is really a pretty good deal. You'll understand how hard it is to get the perfection you demand, and you may even come to wonder how these guys even make money for what they charge.

I think it'll breed more respect for the skilled tradesmen who make our gear.
 
Some gear is unobtainable for some people, other than making it or modding it themselves. Case in point - my canoe poles. You just can't buy 'em around here (except maybe from me).

Other than that, I agree with ya, CC. :4:

Well, they CAN order them off the 'net. ;)


But to be honest, this isn't about anyone agreeing with me, but just to put out some ideas (since I can't do what I want to be doing right now), and maybe share your own.
 
Economically speaking, my argument is sound, as there is always opportunity cost. In your example, there are several things you could do other than the DIY project, or going to the movies. You chose one of the opportunities, the opportunity cost is the other things you didn't do. When you buy something you pay a monetary cost (you decide you want to own a product more than you want to own pieces of paper with ink on them), and the opportunity cost of the other things that money could have bought.

When you make or modify something, you pay the opportunity cost for what you could have done, a monetary cost for the materials needed, and the labor cost for your work. Whether or not you enjoy yourself is irrelevant to the fact that there is still a cost. You simply determine that the enjoyment derived is well in excess of the costs involved. You have to make that determination.

The exceptions are at either end of the spectrum. The guy with lots of money but very little free time is all but forced to buy anything he wants because he hasn't got the time to make it if he wanted to. The other end is occupied by the guy with very little money, but plenty of time and labor to "spend" on the project, who is all but forced to make what he wants.

I don't mean to make everything sound like a job, but I think it's important to understand these concepts. Here's why:
I often see people complain about the cost of items. "Yeah I know it's a custom knife, but how does he get off charging that much for it?" Well, go make it yourself. Make it with the perfect fit and finish that is always demanded. Make the sheath you would demand come with your custom knife. Now, do the cost analysis. You find that the materials and electricity involved is minor compared to the labor cost. When you come up with your final cost, you'll find that paying the pro to do it, even paying the necessary American (or Canadian, or Swedish -- i.e. first world) wages, is really a pretty good deal. You'll understand how hard it is to get the perfection you demand, and you may even come to wonder how these guys even make money for what they charge.

I think it'll breed more respect for the skilled tradesmen who make our gear.

I'd hug you if I could.:27: I can't put it into words that well but you've hit the nail on the head.
 
Some valid points, but at least one false argument. :)

Those who modify and make their gear are often doing not just to save money , but as a hobby, an entertainment that they enjoy.
...If , instead, I buy $40 of materials, and set down to make a DIY project, and spend three or four evenings at it, I have at the end, entertained myself for many more hours for the same average cost. ...
?Just saying, not everything belongs under the cost accounting microscope. :)

A big plus one. :dblthumb:

My "Zen Moments" are when I'm in the garage welding, grinding, whittling, or making something. Generally I don't DIY to save money... I do it because making something with my hands is just as enjoyable as using it.
 
:4:I use the cheapest gear I can find that does the job until I can replace it with the best gear available, one piece at a time.

I'm 46, and I now have about 5 or 6 irreplaceable pieces of gear. I got my Licomp stove in '86 before I crossed the continental divide, I got my Randall in 89 when i graduated college, my dunham mountain masters 8 years ago, my antler firesteel in 2002, my wetterlings long hunting axe 2008, and my coleman F1 single mantle lantern Yesterday, various pieces of cooking gear over the last 35 years.:4:

I have multiple "second tier" pieces of equipment which are relaceable, but not easily, and I really don't want to.

Some favorite stuff just wears out too, like my sluberjack sleeping bag, irreplaceable until it wore out.:4:
 
You have to remember as well that the folks that modify their gear are modifying it to better suit their needs... Most things sold and marketed now a days are for an average person. Just because GSI chose a certain handle setup for their s.s. Bottle cup doesn't mean that I'm going to be comfortable using it. That's why you see people making alternate styles of collapsable handles. Same thing with packs or wool blankets that have zippers sewn into them to make a sleeping bag... People are using what they may already have.
 
I'd hug you if I could.:27: I can't put it into words that well but you've hit the nail on the head.

Amen... I usually stay clear of those discussions on the forum, but I feel the same way when I see people complain about how much some piece of gear costs. If it's not worth it to you then that's fine, but it doesn't mean someone else is wrong for charging X amount, just that it's not the right price for you. It just seems unnecessary to me to complain about how much someone's gear or merchandise costs - any more than it'd be relevant or appropriate to deride someone for using inexpensive or DIY gear. Use whatever you want - expensive, cheap, free, modern, traditional. Nobody is right and wrong, what matters is the passion we share for the outdoors and bushcraft skills :)

And I also very much agree with the point about custom work. When I first looked at a Turley, I thought it was a lot of money for a knife. But, I've followed Iz's build progress reports and done the math on what he charges for a knife versus the amount of time/work that's involved, and came away surprised the prices are as low as they are. I don't really know how he does it. That's not just Iz either - same thing goes for most of the custom makers and small shops I know.

Is a Frost River canvas bag expensive? Maybe so, but sit down and do some back-of-the-envelope math sometime on what it'd cost you to rent a building, pay workers (including payroll taxes, unemployment insurance, benefits etc.), maintain equipment, buy materials, and maybe even advertising/marketing costs like running a professional website. Then ask yourself honestly what you'd be charging for the end product in that position. It's silly to turn around and compare that to buying a wal-mart backpack - and there's nothing wrong with either if it works for you!
 
Amen to this whole thread!! Celtic I concur with you and Gray as well tho. I've found that DIYing is addicting and brings out the MacGuyver in all of us. I'm like you, I use cheap gear mainly. The one area I wouldn't budge on was clothes. I got some wool, flannel outdoor wear and called it good. I use surplus stuff heavily. Do I like/drool over some of the custom gear out there? Of course. But I work with what I got, that's what bushcraft is all about. I'll use a stone to prep wood if I had to and would love to eventually learn the more primitive methods of our craft.
I will most likely eventually get a custom knife. When? When I get my hardwoodsman tab as a present to myself for completing it. And I'll prob even get one from the same guy I'll be cursing for making the requirements so hard. :4: But when it's all said and done, it's not about that Turley Custom or whatever I end up with the but the knowledge and experience gained from the challenges..

All too often we try to get from "Point A" (Insert any objective) to "Point B" and lose the reality that the true worth is in the journey.

Cheers
 
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All too often we try to get from "Point A" (Insert any objective) to "Point B" and lose the reality that the true worth is in the journey.

Cheers

I agree, and what I think about bushcraft, is that bushcraft is all journey, there is really no destination, per se. Even once you make one milestone, there's the next up ahead. You don't get to a destination until you go west that last time.
 
Some people have never made anything and have no concept of the time and labor that goes into making things. I am a professional designer. My skills are something I have learned and perfected over the years. Not everyone can do it. So you have to pay me for my services. Just like Iz should be paid what he feels he deserves. I can't make a knife.

It makes sense to me.
 
Economically speaking, my argument is sound, as there is always opportunity cost. In your example, there are several things you could do other than the DIY project, or going to the movies. You chose one of the opportunities, the opportunity cost is the other things you didn't do. When you buy something you pay a monetary cost (you decide you want to own a product more than you want to own pieces of paper with ink on them), and the opportunity cost of the other things that money could have bought.

You simply determine that the enjoyment derived is well in excess of the costs involved. You have to make that determination.

In the argumentum ad absurdam extension, then, I should be charging my full wage costs for the time I spend sleeping, reading, or setting here at a computer. Now, that getting paid for sleeping sounds like a great idea, but no one seems to be making that offer.
My point in counter to your point was that not all our time can be "on the books" and subject to cost accounting. Not if we intend to live as free human beings rather than wholly owned slaves.

The cost accounting mode of thinking is only valid when you are valuing _everything_ in terms of dollars. I do not think most of us as bushcrafters care to use that value system, at least not away from work. :)

My free time, in other words, is beyond price, ad I refuse to let it be valued in mundane dollars and sense terms. No accounting system can handle that particular choice , I think. ;)
 
My free time, in other words, is beyond price, ad I refuse to let it be valued in mundane dollars and sense terms. No accounting system can handle that particular choice , I think. ;)

I look at it this way. Things do not cost money. They cost time. My time, whether it be a required task, or a choice. Either way it spends time.

I tell my kids when they want something that they can't have this.
That would cost me X hours of my life to buy, and I am not willing to do that.

We literally sell our lives in exchange for currency.

Therefor it makes more sense to pay for an item in cash, if the time expenditure is greater to create it, that it is to simply pay for it with time you have already sold rather than expend more.
 
Economically speaking, my argument is sound, as there is always opportunity cost. In your example, there are several things you could do other than the DIY project, or going to the movies. You chose one of the opportunities, the opportunity cost is the other things you didn't do. When you buy something you pay a monetary cost (you decide you want to own a product more than you want to own pieces of paper with ink on them), and the opportunity cost of the other things that money could have bought.

When you make or modify something, you pay the opportunity cost for what you could have done, a monetary cost for the materials needed, and the labor cost for your work. Whether or not you enjoy yourself is irrelevant to the fact that there is still a cost. You simply determine that the enjoyment derived is well in excess of the costs involved. You have to make that determination.

The exceptions are at either end of the spectrum. The guy with lots of money but very little free time is all but forced to buy anything he wants because he hasn't got the time to make it if he wanted to. The other end is occupied by the guy with very little money, but plenty of time and labor to "spend" on the project, who is all but forced to make what he wants.

I don't mean to make everything sound like a job, but I think it's important to understand these concepts. Here's why:
I often see people complain about the cost of items. "Yeah I know it's a custom knife, but how does he get off charging that much for it?" Well, go make it yourself. Make it with the perfect fit and finish that is always demanded. Make the sheath you would demand come with your custom knife. Now, do the cost analysis. You find that the materials and electricity involved is minor compared to the labor cost. When you come up with your final cost, you'll find that paying the pro to do it, even paying the necessary American (or Canadian, or Swedish -- i.e. first world) wages, is really a pretty good deal. You'll understand how hard it is to get the perfection you demand, and you may even come to wonder how these guys even make money for what they charge.

I think it'll breed more respect for the skilled tradesmen who make our gear.


If I create, build, or craft something as a hobby, It doesn't mean I'm losing money or opportunities. Sure I could buy those items and save time, or I could be working at my job making money instead of doing something I enjoy. But to me, That argument is flawed accountant's logic, where you count what you never had as a lose. You also forgot to factor in the relaxation, gaining experience with a hobby, and good old fashioned fun into the mix. There's no monetary value there, but somethings are worth more than money my friend. ;)

I couldn't agree more about skilled craftsman charging what seems to be allot of money, but really most of the time they are undercharging.
 
Economically speaking, my argument is sound, as there is always opportunity cost. In your example, there are several things you could do other than the DIY project, or going to the movies. You chose one of the opportunities, the opportunity cost is the other things you didn't do. When you buy something you pay a monetary cost (you decide you want to own a product more than you want to own pieces of paper with ink on them), and the opportunity cost of the other things that money could have bought.

When you make or modify something, you pay the opportunity cost for what you could have done, a monetary cost for the materials needed, and the labor cost for your work. Whether or not you enjoy yourself is irrelevant to the fact that there is still a cost. You simply determine that the enjoyment derived is well in excess of the costs involved. You have to make that determination.

The exceptions are at either end of the spectrum. The guy with lots of money but very little free time is all but forced to buy anything he wants because he hasn't got the time to make it if he wanted to. The other end is occupied by the guy with very little money, but plenty of time and labor to "spend" on the project, who is all but forced to make what he wants.

I don't mean to make everything sound like a job, but I think it's important to understand these concepts. Here's why:
I often see people complain about the cost of items. "Yeah I know it's a custom knife, but how does he get off charging that much for it?" Well, go make it yourself. Make it with the perfect fit and finish that is always demanded. Make the sheath you would demand come with your custom knife. Now, do the cost analysis. You find that the materials and electricity involved is minor compared to the labor cost. When you come up with your final cost, you'll find that paying the pro to do it, even paying the necessary American (or Canadian, or Swedish -- i.e. first world) wages, is really a pretty good deal. You'll understand how hard it is to get the perfection you demand, and you may even come to wonder how these guys even make money for what they charge.

I think it'll breed more respect for the skilled tradesmen who make our gear.

I agree 100% on this concept. I have made turkey calls for over 10 years...You're not paying me for the call, the wood used, the energy consumed by my shop equipment, the divided cost of all my tools, the glass or glass cutter, the slate....you're paying me for MY TIME & KNOW HOW.
 
Chris, I'm sorry, but you and GreyOne have entirely missed the point.
Not everything is valued in money, and money isn't the only thing spent.

If I create, build, or craft something as a hobby, It doesn't mean I'm losing money or opportunities.
Yes, it does. You can look at it as losing or spending. If you build something as a hobby, you give up/lose/spend the time you could have been pursuing on another hobby.

When you are teaching your kids to play ball, what do you call it? "spending time". Everybody understands the concept, though they may not explicitly think in those terms.

"Spending", or "giving up" something doesn't automatically imply a negative as some seem to be stuck on. I think most of us are more than happy to spend the "opportunity cost" of a visit to the dentist to do. . .just about anything else. LOL

We all prioritize our spending. Some like to spend time making or modding. Some would rather buy, even if they have to draw up plans and have someone else make it for them, spending money on it, so they can spend more time in the woods. Some spend their bushcraft time with their families, because that's more important.

You see where a person's heart is by what you see them "spend" on.
 
Good lord, this thread is giving me a headache. I am going to the basement to do some leather work and build something.

Mongo go make stuff! :)
 
While I agree with many of your points, I actually enjoy tinkering around "making" gear or other projects. I see it just as much a pass time as my bushcrafting. as it is what I do inbetween my trips to the woods. Working with my hands and using my creativity helps me sleep at night.
 
Great thread. For myself maybe 10% of the time what I make myself turns out good enough to use. Getting the skills of a master that does something everyday is not easy and even though fun at first it normally end up in frustration that I was unable to produce the quality I have seen elsewhere. A lot of the time I end up buying what I spent time trying to make anyway just because the quality is so much better. If you truly enjoy the process and see that as the value then no cost benefit analyse is necessary but if you are like me and become frustrated when things are not turning out as hoped for then the cost benefit analyse is worthwhile.

For the bigger question on gear I agree with the OP. I would change it a little to say "use what works." I think that people tend to have a romanticized idea of what they want to do in the woods and choose gear based on that. What gear you choose should depend on how you intend to use it. Most folks make recommendations based on what they do in the woods not what the person asking the question wants to do. It always blows me away when someone says "what backpack should I buy" and the guy gets 10 different answers and no one bothers to ask how he expects to use it.
 
So if I only build stuff in the time that I would have normally spent completely idle, that time isn't spent but utilized to be productive instead of wasteful. That time wasn't lost but found. I'm in the black instead of the red ;)
 
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