SIXFOOTER
Guide
What is the difference between an M4 and an AR?
This is something I should know
This is something I should know
Silly Black Rifle ??
- Thread starter SIXFOOTER
- Start date
There are "M4" ar15s that are copies of an M4. Colt SP6921 being the closest 
Or a permanently attached muzzle device.
*Quietly leaves thread*
Or a permanently attached muzzle device.
*Quietly leaves thread*
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I
IA Dragoon
Guest
M4 is made for urban / cqb combat. One of the big draw backs is that the standard 5.56 load does not reach full potential in a 16 in barrel. It was designed for a 20 in barrel. That's why we have the 6.8 spc etc etc those were made to burn their powder faster for the short barrel. If you are contemplating a M4. watch the video concealment is not cover @YouTube it will make you want a AK
Swede6.5x55
Guide
The M4 is the Mil-spec one. Full Automatic. Usually has a short barrel, with a 4 point or 6 point stock. Often called the "Man Barbie" due to all the things you can put on it.
The AR-15 stands for Armalite 15. Why, i havent a clue. It's Semi-automatic only, usually by DPMS, Bushmaster, S&W, Colt or Century Arms. It's the one that we like to build and still call the Man Barbie.
The AR-15 stands for Armalite 15. Why, i havent a clue. It's Semi-automatic only, usually by DPMS, Bushmaster, S&W, Colt or Century Arms. It's the one that we like to build and still call the Man Barbie.
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Horned Toad
Guest
Real M4s have a 14.5 inch barrel.
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Horned Toad
Guest
Just to mix it up prior to late 94 you would have had a CAR-15. Semi or full auto,14.5 inch barrel, collapsible metal butt stock, no removable carry handle with A2 sights and small round hand guards.
In terms of a build the difference between a standard 20 inch AR and an civilian legal length M4 is usually a great deal of money saved as well as the avoidance of life-shortening frustration until the M4 runs properly.
Back in the day you could tell who the really cool kids were because they got to carry the shorty version. Now everyone has an M4 so I guess everyone is cool.
Back in the day you could tell who the really cool kids were because they got to carry the shorty version. Now everyone has an M4 so I guess everyone is cool.
solocanoe
Bushmaster
lol....Pict, I think you just put into words why I gave up my last "black rifle" 3 or 4 years ago!
(well, the "overdone" thing....AND the crazy money mine brought!
)
Its getting to the point with the m4/ar/Ak fad that its almost comical. Freakin ten thousand tacticool wannabes making you tube videos of themselves doing speed reloads in mama's basement and debating the best tactical round for tactics they have no idea about, or have need for. I love guns, always have. I used an M4 in the Army that was issued to me, and thought is was an average platform. Kinda finicky, and really nothing outstanding. The differance between M4 and AR isn't much in reality. If you haven't shot full auto, its really nothing special from an m4. I preferd semi auto or at the most burst. That's for military stuff. When your an avg civi chances are you wont afford full auto range session anyways. No offense to AR lovers, I support your right to buy and shoot whatever you want. I just wont be running out to buy a 60 pound AR and full battle rattle to do combat rolls on you tube. Lol Sorry for drifting the topic, just got on a ramble.
Son of liberty
Scout
You tube is full of experts.
I have a few Tacticool ARs , they are fun.
I have a few Tacticool ARs , they are fun.
rthrasher2
Scout
AR stands for Armalite Rifle, because Aramlite was the orignial company that designed/patented the ARs. They went out of business along time ago, at which point Colt bought the designs. Now every gun company makes a version.
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Horned Toad
Guest
I have to disagree with the finicky part. I have used issued carbines and personal ones; none of which have been finicky. I would hazard a guess that if they seem finicky I would put the blame more on the owner than the gun. I do agree that they don’t do anything outstanding but for the size and weight they don’t do anything bad either. For me now it’s a tool that I have been using for a long time. I haven’t seen anything better out that that would make me want to go through the time and money of training up on a new system.
As far as you tube I don’t waste the time no matter what the subject.
swissarmy67
Scout
I love the M16/AR-15 design. I carried them for 10+ years in the service. I also manufacture receivers for them
You just have to know how to run it.
When I was in my MOS's were:
11B Infantry
11M Mech Inf.
45B Small Arms Repair
The two biggest issues with reliability are:
NOT ENOUGH LUBE
Bad mags
I saw so much ignorance about proper weapons maintenance and operation that it made me crazy. (much of it from senior NCO's and Officers) :30:
You just have to know how to run it.
When I was in my MOS's were:
11B Infantry
11M Mech Inf.
45B Small Arms Repair
The two biggest issues with reliability are:
NOT ENOUGH LUBE
Bad mags
I saw so much ignorance about proper weapons maintenance and operation that it made me crazy. (much of it from senior NCO's and Officers) :30:
Well the ones I was issued were. I assure you it wasn't me. We trained with them alot. I agree that the training with a differant platform then your experianced makes little sense. That's my only draw to the platform. Id like to own one for that reason. I have lots of experiance with em, and maintaining em, so they feel familiar. Cant really compare uncle sugars well use issued weapons to that of the civi world and all the upgrades and high end parts avail to build a well running machine. I take no advise on tactics from you tube or interwebs forums. They seem to be full of experts. I just never understood the need for avg Joe to be outfitted with full battle rattle 7 mag loadout, 50 pounds of stuff bolted to the gun, and to debate the ins and outs of what rifle will function best in a long term firefight when chances are the guns sit in a safe 99% of the time.....and that's totally ok, whatever trips your trigger. Its a hobby for most, and a job for others. I'm all for owning and shooting whatever you want. Anyone who was in knows the military isn't known for issuing the best gear. Its just what won out the bid for the contract. With some exceptions...lol even a broken clock is right twice a day. However, the civil world sometimes feels obsessed with milspec.....and that since its what the military uses, it must be the best. You see it all the time in marketing.
bearkat
Scout
First off "M4" is just the military designator for the carbine...It is an AR. The reason some people complain about them and say they are finicky is because the gas tube is shorter and doesn't have the same power to force the bolt back like a longer barreled AR. That's why you are starting to see piston driven carbines coming out. With the shorter barrel and piston system they are more reliable. Some would say with the piston system the are just as reliable as an AK.
I think the AR platform is great if made by a reputable company. There are many below par platforms available. Along with my M40 rifle, I carried an M16A2 with a 4x Trijicon while with 1/4 Scout Snipers. With optics it could perform at pretty far distances. Now with the introduction of heavier bullet weights with correct barrel twist it is a better rifle. They are also making mid length gas systems that prolong gun life and help with shootability. I now own a Colt LE 6920.
Well said. The only thing that I have to say though, is the "mil-spec" does use some better steels and inspection processes than some civi stuff. And, myself am kinda drawn to that kinda thing.
There is a lot of false information, opinion, and myth out there about reliability etc....
But, like I said before, and like you just said, The less expensive rifles will shoot and do what most people need them to do.
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Son of liberty
Scout
I would very much dissagree. The Gas system just unlocks the bolt and allows the pressure in the barrel to drive the carrier and bolt back. The shorter the gas system the quicker it will unlock the bolt and the more pressure there is to force the bolt back. This is why the midlength gas system is so popular, it increases the time it takes to unlock the bolt, decreasing the pressure in the barrel and the recoil.
leatherneck31
Tracker
Oh yeah bro, I agree with what you said about milspec. Its applicable in lots of gear. Sometimes though its marketed as milspec special forces high speed operator type buzz words. Pays to know the differannce. Hahaha..... Im by no means anti AR, I just think like alot of things, people tend to way overthink things.
Check your visitor message Leatherneck.
To answer the OP: An AR is any civilian gun modeled after the M16 weapon. The M4 is the military designation for an M16 series weapon with a 14.5" barrel, and a selectfire trigger system (burst -- M4, Auto -- M4A1).
To other things:
M4s, especially early ones, were plagued with reliability problems. The biggest culprit was the size of the gas hole. Too big, and too much gas pressure gets through and the bolt syscle too fast to pick up the next round in the magazine. This is exacerbated by weak magazine springs. Too small, and it won't cycle the weapon. After fooling with the size of the hole, weight of the recoil buffer, strength of the recoil spring, and adding feed lips to the upper receiver, not just the barrel extension, and you have a pretty reliable weapon. A midlength gas system is easier on the gun and more forgiving for manufacturing tolerances. The carbine length system is still more susceptible to failure due to weak mag springs, and excess fouling than a rifle length or midlength is.
Mil-Spec simply means that the materials used and dimensions meet the military specification, that's all. It really doesn't mean a whole lot, but even then most of the lower end manufacturers lie (using 4140 barrel steel instead of 4150, using 4150 steel in the bolts instead of Carpenter 158, etc).
What you really want is a TDP-compliant (Technical Data Package) which not only contains the Mil-Spec, but also the required testing procedures (such as bolts being Magnetic Particle Injection tested, High Pressure tested -- firing a proof load -- and MPI tested again).
A TDP-compliant gun isn't guaranteed to be great, it just insures that every procedure and precaution has been taken to ensure it is. It also does not mean that a "lower tier" gun is going to be a pig, it just increases the likelihood of it.
To other things:
M4s, especially early ones, were plagued with reliability problems. The biggest culprit was the size of the gas hole. Too big, and too much gas pressure gets through and the bolt syscle too fast to pick up the next round in the magazine. This is exacerbated by weak magazine springs. Too small, and it won't cycle the weapon. After fooling with the size of the hole, weight of the recoil buffer, strength of the recoil spring, and adding feed lips to the upper receiver, not just the barrel extension, and you have a pretty reliable weapon. A midlength gas system is easier on the gun and more forgiving for manufacturing tolerances. The carbine length system is still more susceptible to failure due to weak mag springs, and excess fouling than a rifle length or midlength is.
Mil-Spec simply means that the materials used and dimensions meet the military specification, that's all. It really doesn't mean a whole lot, but even then most of the lower end manufacturers lie (using 4140 barrel steel instead of 4150, using 4150 steel in the bolts instead of Carpenter 158, etc).
What you really want is a TDP-compliant (Technical Data Package) which not only contains the Mil-Spec, but also the required testing procedures (such as bolts being Magnetic Particle Injection tested, High Pressure tested -- firing a proof load -- and MPI tested again).
A TDP-compliant gun isn't guaranteed to be great, it just insures that every procedure and precaution has been taken to ensure it is. It also does not mean that a "lower tier" gun is going to be a pig, it just increases the likelihood of it.
You couldn't be more wrong. Lol I have no bias against them at all.
Son of liberty
Scout
I think he is actually talking about the trends in the market place not to the value of the rifle itself.
Exactamundo!!
I actually am a huge fan of the AR as an operating platform when its kept lightweight, well maintained, and with optimal build quality. Something very good about a lightweight bush rifle thats easy to tote, easy to operate, and has many options available for customization. 5.56 might not be the best bush rifle round, but nowadays there is a ton of flavors to choose from. As deep as your pocketbook. My observations were just a ramble on my views of the marketplace and trends, and the people who waay overthink the rifle and debate the combat effectivness of certain brands/accessories to death, when chances are they have never, or will never use it for its intended role as a battle rifle. Who wants to take combat tactic advise from the guy who works at the pawn shop or blockbuster? That seems to be the most prevelant in you tube experts and armchair airsoft commandos in full on battle rattle playing rambo for the cameras thinking they are Clint Smith because they read last months issue of guns and ammo, and got to level 4 gold class on Modern Warfare for the xbox. lol
I believe there are better choices for a bush rifle, but I also believe you could do alot worse then the AR, I will most likely buy or build one down the road regardless. I know the OP was wanting the differance between the M4 and AR, and he has got some great replys here. Just the thread title silly black rifle got my gears spining. I certainly didnt want to imply that im against it, or offend anyone.
Knight
Hospitaller
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PeterCartwright
Guide
Thanks for the good information shared on this thread. I've never gotten closer to combat than watching reruns of Hogan's Heros, but I chose to build an AR. Part of my motivation stemmed from my concerns about political climate. As it turns out, my initial concerns were a bit overblown. As for the future, who knows?
One "plus" regarding doing your own build is you can create the rifle you want. I chose to build around a high quality barrel (16" White Oak Arms match grade stainless barrel with a 7" twist, a Wylde chamber and a fitted bolt). The barrel is free floated inside an aluminum forearm and uses a mid-length gas system. I selected a flat top receiver to keep my sight options as open as possible. (My gun currently wears a flip down rear sight and an Eotech 516 sight which I really like
)
The rifle has proven exceedingly accurate (after the barrel broke in!), completely reliable (so far!), fun and (like all .223/5.56 platforms) LOUD. It would work well for coyotes in the Winter and would be a comforting presence in the event of social unrest. I'm personally delighted that so many folks have become AR fans in recent years. I think it's good for the country as a whole.
PC
One "plus" regarding doing your own build is you can create the rifle you want. I chose to build around a high quality barrel (16" White Oak Arms match grade stainless barrel with a 7" twist, a Wylde chamber and a fitted bolt). The barrel is free floated inside an aluminum forearm and uses a mid-length gas system. I selected a flat top receiver to keep my sight options as open as possible. (My gun currently wears a flip down rear sight and an Eotech 516 sight which I really like
)The rifle has proven exceedingly accurate (after the barrel broke in!), completely reliable (so far!), fun and (like all .223/5.56 platforms) LOUD. It would work well for coyotes in the Winter and would be a comforting presence in the event of social unrest. I'm personally delighted that so many folks have become AR fans in recent years. I think it's good for the country as a whole.
PC
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